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Myopic Rhino

Behavior in this forum

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Myopic Rhino    2317
The For Beginners forum was created as a place where people new to the site, new to game development, and new to programming in general could come and ask questions without fear of being flamed or made fun of for asking stupid, newbie questions. If threads like this one (not the worst, I''m sure, but I was just reading it) are any indication, my plan isn''t working. Besides providing a place to ask the typical beginner questions (and hopefully keep that kind of thing out of the other forums), this forum is here to help show newcomers how they should behave on our forums. I know that many of you get annoyed by people who ask a question when they could have easily found the answer on their own with minimal effort. I do too. But if they are posting in this particular forum then at least they recognize that they are a beginner or are asking a beginner question, we should at least make an effort to answer their question while at the same time showing them how they can find the answer themselves next time, or ask a better question next time, or whatever. This forum needs to be friendly to beginners. I feel that too often, it is not. I''d appreciate it if people made an effort to change that. Thanks.

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Wachar    127
I agree. I''ve asked a couple questions and I''ve had snobby answers(especially in the post "FPS"). I thought newbies were exactly that - ''newbies''!



Ciao!



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a person    118
its not so much that ppl are mean to newbies, its that newbies tend to exggerate their credintals (ie computer science major, hardcore gamer, made some projects, etc) then ask very basic questions that a few minutes of reasearch could answer. newbies need to learn how to do some research, instead of asking the exact questions that were answered numerous times. its funny how some even say they searched but find nothing, then someone else does a quick search and find tons of information. maybe a tutorial on how to do research?

personally i try to help, but some dont want help, they just want you to do the work for them.

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Palidine    1315
quote:
newbies need to learn how to do some research, instead of asking the exact questions that were answered numerous times


so they''re newbies. and yet they should know how to properly ask questions.....

that sounds like a paradox if i ever heard one.

a good rule of thumb should be, if basic questions piss you off and you see one in the For Beginners section just ignore it and let someone a little calmer handle the newbie education in a kind way. yelling at a newbie for not knowing how to properly ask a question or for not understanding the difference between good and bad questions is like yelling at a 5 year old for not knowing basic algebra. you can''t expect someone to know something they haven''t been taught and they''re not going to learn from someone yelling at them and calling them stupid. the likely result of the latter is that they classify you as "asshole" and leave the board, stealing from the community any insights they would have eventually come up with when they left the newbie stage.

don''t hurt the community be scaring off new people.

-me

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catfoodgood    122
If you don''t have something nice to say, don''t say anything. When I first started using this forum I had no idea what the path was to becoming a developer, but over the past year or so I''ve developed a plan, and started to act on it. I also didn''t know where to look for everything the first time I posted here, and I would be willing to bet that some of the people who are flaming people on their first day didn''t have all the answers when they started. Put things in perpective, the questions that you flame were things that you didn''t know at one time, and the questions that you may have now are things that someone with 20 years experience programming probably considers pretty basic. No one is born with this knowledge, everybody has to do something a first time to learn it even something as simple as searching google. So I agree, if you can''t handle answering the question in an understanding manner then keep you''re f@#%ing mouth shut!

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LessBread    1415
quote:
Original post by gaussuk
whats google?


Which key is the any key?

google is the premiere internet search engine: google

Dave, is there a way to block AP''s from that forum? It seemed like the AP set the tone in that particular thread. It must be difficult to hold AP''s accountable I would imagine.

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Guest Anonymous Poster   
Guest Anonymous Poster
Perhaps? You question google? BLASPHEMY!

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catfoodgood    122
quote:
Original post by LessBread
Dave, is there a way to block AP''s from that forum? It seemed like the AP set the tone in that particular thread. It must be difficult to hold AP''s accountable I would imagine.


I Agree completely.

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Enigma1625    122
quote:
Original post by Palidine
[quote]so they're newbies. and yet they should know how to properly ask questions.....

that sounds like a paradox if i ever heard one.







Just because someone is a newbie doesn't mean they are incapable of at least TRYING to figure out the answer on their own. Of course they should know how to properly ask questions! Pardon me, but I think you are mistaking the term 'newbie' with 'idiot'.


[edited by - Enigma1625 on May 1, 2002 2:14:14 PM]

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Michalson    1657
I do agree but some of the people coming here act like the forums are some sort of service. Many of the questions are already answered both in the GDNet resource directory and on web, and yet they do not make any effort to find them. Even if they're beginners they shouldn't be spoon fed answers, since they learn nothing that way.

A more constructive response for these posts might be:

Newbie : Hi, I'm 14 and I want to make quake only it will be better, but I can't make DirectX work. Can someone give me the code to do it.

PoliteGDnet'er : That's a very big project you've set your self up for, maybe you should try something smaller. As for DirectX there's a lot a full tutorials already done and linked for your convience at the top under "Articles and Resources", if that doesn't help you can always try Google where I already found these links [link], [link] that can help you out.

Newbie : Thanks! I have a got a DirectX working and found a tutorial on how to load models, but it seems I can only make the sides one color, how do real games make objects look so detailed? Do they have many-many triangles

PoliteGDnet'er : What your looking for is something called textures, they're pictures that are...


Result: Newbie has learned to look for tutorials and use the technical forums as a place to ask question when he doesn't know what he's looking for or can't find any existing information about it.

In the example post the individual said he was a university student, and quite frankly IMHO one of the 'skills' uni students are supposed to have/develop if they ever want to be able to graduate is the ability to do independant research. No one wants to hire a graduate if all they can do is ask someone else to solve their problems. BTW, despite this there was still no reason for flaming, a simple post explaining that their were already lots of resources already out there, along with a link or two (cut and paste from the 1st page google returns) for him to get started with.

[Edit] Formatting causing page to be extra wide

[Edit] Blocking AP from Beginners Forum would be good IMO


[edited by - Michalson on May 1, 2002 2:25:34 PM]

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Palidine    1315
quote:
Original post by Enigma1625
Of course they should know how to properly ask questions! Pardon me, but I think you are mistaking the term ''newbie'' with ''idiot''.


of course the DON''T know how to ask questions. one of the things that makes a newbie a newbie is a misunderstanding of what boards like this are for.

<soapbox>

One of the most common and understandable assumptions that a lot of newbies make is that newsboards are a place where experts come to give answers to people who don''t know what is going on. Your job as someone who posts to the For Beginners forum, or responds to posts by newbies in other forums, is to EDUCATE noobs on the PURPOSE of these boards. It''s called being a good and supportive community instead of being an elitist assholic community. Michalson wrote quite eloquently about how to properly approach such misguided posts.

And like i said before if you don''t like trying to educate people whose assumptions are competly wrong, just stay out of the game and leave that job to people who enjoy doing it.

</soapbox>

god damn, that was a little to feel-good for me. too much time in san francisco. time to go back east and get my edge back.

maybe we should open a new forum called "flame wars" where we can all post obnoxious things and get our hostility out. that''d actually be pretty fun. New Post -> Subject "You''re all idiots and i hate you"

-me

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Myopic Rhino    2317
quote:
Original post by LessBread
Dave, is there a way to block AP''s from that forum? It seemed like the AP set the tone in that particular thread. It must be difficult to hold AP''s accountable I would imagine.

I think in the new forums we''ve settled on allowing APs on a per forum basis, and I agree that this would be a good forum in which to disallow anon posts.

Back to the main topic, I''m not suggesting that we spoon feed newbies. As many people in this thread have pointed out, the best approach, for everyone involved, is to give them a gentle push in the right direction. Direct them to resources, like Google or articles, that can help with their question. Honestly, the public education system hasn''t exactly excelled at teaching people to figure things out on their own, so you can''t really blame newbies for expecting to be spoon fed.

OTOH, if after repeated attempts to politely help a newbie, they continue to resuse to make any effort, feel free to flame away (rodneyldixon, anyone?)

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a person    118
when i say research, i mean using the link that appears on every page titled "For Begginers". its a very good faq that would help a lot of newbies. maybe the forum entrance should have it bold faced on the front so it stands out and newbies will use it instead of asking silly questions which are answered in the faq. even a complete newbie can go through the resource comlumn at the top of EVERY page. view some of the articles, check out sotware, read the faq. at least then the newbie can phrase the question in a way that can help others help them.

i completely taught myself how to code, never had any help whatsoever from the net (because in part i did not have net access). i am no genius, but i was able to trudge through the help files that came with qbasic. later on turboC++, then VB. finnally i got net access, and used search engines to find information, tutorials, etc. started using msvc to code win32 apps. its amazing the wealth of infromation on the net. ppl have no problems find other things they are interested in, why should this be any different? programming is a hobby for most newbies that come here. like any hobby research should be done.

while the public education system is not the greatest, i learned from it and have no problems doing research on topics which i am a complete newbie. maybe parents should be more understanding of their kids and allow them creative outlets. coax them to learn to play an instrument, draw, sports, martial arts, hiking, dram club, etc. anything to get the kid to see that they need to put effort into it something in order for them to be good at it.

if you cant even attempt to help yourself, then who can?

some responses seem harsh, but they contain informative information. in fact, sometimes the poster NEEDS to hear the straight skinny on the topic without a sugar coating. some ppl are WAY too sensitive (while others may be the oppisite) about bing political correct. my feeling is if the response if informative, no matter how rude, it was helpful. it would be nice for everyone to be polite, but when newbies attack, you never know what to expect.

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noober    122
Hey didnt have any newbie conveyance to him. He spouted off that hes a CS major and that hes stuck. People felt intimidated and started telling him if he is CS major he should at least know how to use a search engine. I think in a beginners forum he shouldnt be blabbin about credentials when hes gonna ask a question


just my .02

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krikkit    792
Where is it written that you have to pass a judgement of character before even getting a response?
If he''s full of it, let him be full of it and give him links.

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i8degrees    122
I think all newbies should read this - ripped from Oluseyi''s signature, it''s quite informative.

[LINK]
http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

"I am governed by none other than the Laws of the Universe."

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Shannon Barber    1681
quote:
Original post by LessBread
Dave, is there a way to block AP''s from that forum? It seemed like the AP set the tone in that particular thread. It must be difficult to hold AP''s accountable I would imagine.

Actually we have a decent idea who that was. Never know for certain, but the board tracks IP address and who post from where. So we have a list of users that have posted from the same address that AP has. Obviously just knowing the IP doesn''t tell you anything for certain, but it points the finger hard when one name shows up.

Part of the problem is the history of usenet and the arch-typical attitudes carried-over from there, and some, shall we say, hardline moderators here who set the tone in other forums.

...
PS I definetly would *not* want AP post disabled in the Math & Physics, AI, nor Software Engineering forums as potential lurkers there are likely know more than the collective rest of us. If you make it hard for them to post you won''t ever here from them. The Beginner''s forum seems like a good candidate for disabling AP though.

Hey Dave, if it doesn''t already, could you make certain that it state AP post are only disabled in _That Particular Forum_. If I attempted to lurk-post at a site and it denied an AP post, I would automatically assume AP post were disabled on the entire site.

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Deathscape    122
I''d like to just comment on, a person''s comment:

"newbies need to learn how to do some research, instead of asking the exact questions that were answered numerous times. its funny how some even say they searched but find nothing, then someone else does a quick search and find tons of information. maybe a tutorial on how to do research?"

I don''t know how many times i''ve looked for something specific, say.. finding as simple as some news article needed for a school paper, only to find nothing even close to resembling what I wanted. It''s to the point where i hardly even bother to look for information anymore.. and if i do, i find most of what i want in familiar sites that i''ve grown to know and love through countless days of searching for one topic. I just want to say, net search''s won''t find what you''re looking for all the time. someone can enter a topic they wanna look up and have crap returned to them while someone else enters the same topic (maybe spelled differently) and find everything they want.

You can''t learn what you can''t find, and you may think it''s funny, but it''s down right annoying as hell being the one that can''t find certain things You can. And with that, i leave.

Trav

~p.s: did i mention i''m a newbie too? no i didn''t sorry. This site is my main source of information and any sites hosted/linked to this one are all part''s of a greater knowlege: Thank you GDNet, Thank you.

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RajanSky    100
Yeah I''ve read that thing from Oluseyi''s signature before. I agree with it in the sense that it accurately describes what forums are really like. So it''s good for a newbie to read something like that.

But on the other hand, I think there''s no excuse for treating another person badly. Even if you have good intentions, insulting or offending other people just isn''t the way to help anyone. It just reflects immaturity and impatience, which are both not very good attributes of a real coder. In addition, it sheds a bad light on the community as a whole. As it''s plain to see, there are a number of people who are disappointed with the fact that these forums are getting very elitist and snobby.

If you hate newbies, then here''s a simple solution- just Don''t Go To The Beginner''s Section! And if they post in another section, just ignore it. Just let the newbies be ignorant; even you were ignorant at one point in your life. Find something better to do with your time. Or if you MUST respond to newbie questions, then it''s okay to point out what the correct behavior is, but at least don''t act like a snob. Whether you''re right or wrong, nobody appreciates snobby behavior.

To some, newbies might be annoying, they might seem like they expect to be spoon-fed, they might seem full of s***. But, all they''re trying to do is learn. There''s nothing wrong with that. Even if they do seem like they''re not putting in the work, I think at least it''s a step.

In the real world, if you go somewhere to work, you don''t go mouthing off on any person who annoys you. People like that are quickly identified as "jerks" and nobody wants to work with one. In life you have to have a bit of self-control when you''re dealing with other people. There''s more to life than sitting in front of a computer and typing out code. We all need to get good at working with other people, both professionally and socially, and I don''t see why these forums should be an exception to that.

As a final note, some people act like they''re the protectors of the forums, uprooting evil and defending against the attacking newbies... You act as if you''re protecting "our" community, yet you act like it is "your" community. You''re very conveniently ignoring the fact that this forum was created as a place for newbies so they could ask questions without being made fun of. This is what Myopic Rhino said. So, there in writing, we have him saying that THE PEOPLE WHO MADE THIS FORUM INTENDED IT TO BE FRIENDLY. So don''t say that you''re helping anyone by treating newbies badly. It just shows a lack of respect for the people who made the forums.

Rajan

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Promit    13246
I feel that everybody seems to assume that everybody else is a genious who has countless hours to work things out on their own and need no help from anyone; they believe that newbies only ask for help to piss other people off. IMO, there are really two kinds of posts in For Beginners. One is the sarcastic joke that most people get a kick out of. The second is the honest but computer illiterate computer newbie poking his head in. To be frank, I''ve seen nearly none of the former lately, while I''ve seen a huge amount of the latter. I''ve also seen many topics have jeering people who are of the opinion that their knowledge(which is usually also quite scant) far exceeds the knowledge of anybody else''s and thus gives them the right to bitch at everybody else. Look around this forum; notice how many hot-headed angry impatient people have posted in relation the the cool-headed and kind people. I think what we really need in here is the "Fascist hand" basically, hard line moderator who will not tolerate any jeering at newbies, flaming, trolling etc. On a side note, we also need to encourage newbies not to insult their own intelligence! You see so many posts where people assume that they are asking a stupid question. I think that an honest question is never stupid. There are plenty of people who do not so much as understand how to get apps like Word open without an icon on the desktop, but still would love to write games. The condescending attitudes of posters perusing these forums disgusts me, and given the chance I would put an end to it bloody fast. I may not deserve that chance, of course, but it''s not really for me to decide.

And yes, we definitely need AP''s banned from this forum; many people use the AP shield to bash newbies without getting in trouble.

____________________________________________________________
Direct3D vs. OpenGL

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