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Getting Polygon Models From Games?

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If I want to make a game mod for say, a first person shooter, is there any way to just take an existing model from a 3D game? How would I do this? How would I do it if the 3D game I want to get the model from is a console game? Maybe there would have to be a way to get to the info of the model and all it''s animations, because in many 3D games even though you can rotate the camera, it doesn''t work at all times for all animations. I wonder how to do this because I would love to play as Sonic in Unreal (not Tourn just Unreal), or play as one of the Fur Fighters in Unreal. Otherwise the only way I can make a new playable character is to make new 2D sprites for Duke Nukem 3D, if it allows you to make a new playable character. But how can I get polygon models from games rather than remake them? For example, someone made a Sonic model for Quake 3, but why not just use the EXACT model from Sonic Adventure 2? Is there no way to get it? Is it because it has way too many polygons for the PC game to accept or what? Does anyone know a lot about what I''m talking about?

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depend of the game, but you can take models from polycount


-----------------------------------------------

"Cuando se es peon, la unica salida es la revolución"

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Getting a model from a console game? IF this is possible, it would be insanely hard to do.
Getting models from PC games can be done, if you can make a converter for whatever format they''ve been changed into. (usually a custom format for that game/company, which you will not be able to figure out without the documentation on it which they will almost never give you)

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well then there is that whole copyright protection thing. when you recreate the model from scratch you at least have the ability to say its art you created based on something else and under fair use you have some leeway.

dont try getting things from conosle games. they use special formats for everything, but unlike pc games that tend to have tools for use, consoels dont. models could also be encrypted, use hardware optimized textures stored in an alien format, file system may not be readable by cd drive, files could be hidden instead a wad/zip style file system that is non standard, model could be split up in a million ways and stored in pieces all over the place, animation could vastly change things depending on skelatal, frame based, delta frame based, etc. ie there are way too many varibles in try to decphier console game models if you can even access all the data on the disk (pcs cant read game data session of a gdrom).

dont steal models from polycount. ask permission before using any work (ask the artist not the website maintainers). look into milkshape which can help you create and view models from various pc games. also you need to own the full version of the game, as most pc demo versions do not allow you do modify game data.

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- Quote
dont try getting things from conosle games. they use special formats for everything, but unlike pc games that tend to have tools for use, consoels dont. models could also be encrypted, use hardware optimized textures stored in an alien format, file system may not be readable by cd drive, files could be hidden instead a wad/zip style file system that is non standard, model could be split up in a million ways and stored in pieces all over the place, animation could vastly change things depending on skelatal, frame based, delta frame based, etc. ie there are way too many varibles in try to decphier console game models if you can even access all the data on the disk (pcs cant read game data session of a gdrom).
- A person



I disagree. Console models are NEVER encrypted and are in a common and simple format (Playstation GTE and GPU assembly ... well documented and easier than PC assembly). They do need a little processing to convert into usable form, but it''s the same procedure for pretty much every game, with only minor variations. Console models are also tiny, being saved in 16 bit fixed format, and usually very efficient use of textures. They''re also 100% quad + triangle meshes, which is pretty nice for my uses.

The trick is to have an emulator dump you the model. With the playstation, you can find the 3d-to-2d projection that the model underwent when being projected to the screen by hacking the GTE portion, and all the faces and textures (in screen coordinates) from the GPU portion (in the graphics plugin for most emulators). Those 2 can be used to reconstuct an original textured mesh (which can be easily animated with the skeleton system I''m using for my current project).

My particular tools were AdriPSX + the PEOPS GPU plugin (both open source).

The only way a game can prevent this is by not using software rendering (which is not particularly fast on a playstation), so I think it''s safe to assume that most games will fall to this trick. I''ve tested it with Chrono Cross and managed to get a well animated Serge model:
screenshot of Serge: (http://bingweb.binghamton.edu/~bj92077/serge.jpg)
modeller + source + 2 dumped models: (http://bingweb.binghamton.edu/~bj92077/modeller.zip)

The numpad is used to control the bones, INSERT, HOME, DEL, END, PGUP, PGDN constrol the position, and the arrow keys control rotation. Sorry the modeller is so hard to use, but it was never intended for release (just a tool to help me play around with 3d).

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Guest Anonymous Poster
You should know that reverse engineering a game or using any kind of material from a commercial product (meaning ripping it from the game or whatever) is illegal and could put you in trouble. Not all developers are that light on people stealing their hard work.

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Reverse Engineering is legal (except in the case of DMCA, but the Playstation hardware is not encrypted, so that''s not the case).

I own a copy of the game, and unless I''m not getting something, that includes all the parts of the game, including the models, and I can do whatever I want in terms of personal use.

If I had a non-copyrighted 3d model that I could dump for my demonstration, I would, but I don''t know of any non-copyrighted PSX games with 3d models.

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Is that program available anywhere for download by any chance? :D I''d love to take a closer look at the Final Fantasy IX models!

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Unfortunately, it''s not a stand alone program. It''s a hacked version of AdriPSX, and a hacked version of the PEOPS graphics plugin. The stuff is extremely hard to use, and requires re-compiling to change some of the settings (I need to use an unhacked and old copy of AdriPSX to generate the savestates for use in the hacked copy, as the hacked copy is severly crippled (can''t control anything, and can''t access the CD-ROM ... but can load a save state and render (and dump) a frame).

AdriPSX doesn''t run FFIX unfortunately.



The big limitation right now to having a good dumper is the lack of a good open source emulator to latch it on to.

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quote:
Original post by Yartrebo
- Quote
dont try getting things from conosle games. they use special formats for everything, but unlike pc games that tend to have tools for use, consoels dont. models could also be encrypted, use hardware optimized textures stored in an alien format, file system may not be readable by cd drive, files could be hidden instead a wad/zip style file system that is non standard, model could be split up in a million ways and stored in pieces all over the place, animation could vastly change things depending on skelatal, frame based, delta frame based, etc. ie there are way too many varibles in try to decphier console game models if you can even access all the data on the disk (pcs cant read game data session of a gdrom).
- A person



I disagree. Console models are NEVER encrypted and are in a common and simple format (Playstation GTE and GPU assembly ... well documented and easier than PC assembly). They do need a little processing to convert into usable form, but it''s the same procedure for pretty much every game, with only minor variations. Console models are also tiny, being saved in 16 bit fixed format, and usually very efficient use of textures. They''re also 100% quad + triangle meshes, which is pretty nice for my uses.

The trick is to have an emulator dump you the model. With the playstation, you can find the 3d-to-2d projection that the model underwent when being projected to the screen by hacking the GTE portion, and all the faces and textures (in screen coordinates) from the GPU portion (in the graphics plugin for most emulators). Those 2 can be used to reconstuct an original textured mesh (which can be easily animated with the skeleton system I''m using for my current project).

My particular tools were AdriPSX + the PEOPS GPU plugin (both open source).

The only way a game can prevent this is by not using software rendering (which is not particularly fast on a playstation), so I think it''s safe to assume that most games will fall to this trick. I''ve tested it with Chrono Cross and managed to get a well animated Serge model:
screenshot of Serge: (http://bingweb.binghamton.edu/~bj92077/serge.jpg)
modeller + source + 2 dumped models: (http://bingweb.binghamton.edu/~bj92077/modeller.zip)

The numpad is used to control the bones, INSERT, HOME, DEL, END, PGUP, PGDN constrol the position, and the arrow keys control rotation. Sorry the modeller is so hard to use, but it was never intended for release (just a tool to help me play around with 3d).


I the last 2 years i am work in a animation programs. Can i send a email for sharing experience?.. Modeller?.. not vesa found? (is for DOS? yuk!)



-----------------------------------------------

"Cuando se es peon, la unica salida es la revolución"

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Sure. my e-mail is Yartrebo at hotmail dot com. (weird spelling to avoid auto-spam bots from picking it out)


Yep., it''s a DOS modeller (but can be recompiled to windows or Unix if you have a compiler and Allegro). As soon as I get my script interpreter (needed for animation, since I''m using script code to do my animation sequences, not keyframes) running, I''ll take the time to download mingw32 and compile it for windows.

I have have almost 0 experience with 3d or modelling, but I do have plenty of coding experience and plenty of experience with 2d polygon modelling/animation. What type of animation programs have you written/are you writing.

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I just wanted to slide in a little thing...

"I own a copy of the game, and unless I''m not getting something, that includes all the parts of the game, including the models, and I can do whatever I want in terms of personal use."

Useually, nowadays, that isnt the case. Nowadays you useually own a revokable license to use(or in this case, play) the game. You dont own it.

Eric

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Taking content out of a game and using it in another game or mod based on another game/engine wether it is freeware or not is plain illegal.

[edited by - StrangeFate on May 9, 2002 10:13:08 PM]

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I don''t remember signing any EULA when I bought any of my Playstation games ... PC games might have them, but I''ve never seen one on a Playstation game.

The model that I have up right now is more likely than not fair use.
- It has no effect on Chrono Cross sales ... models are quite useless to gamers without a game that uses them. If anything, more people will buy it because they heard the name and saw the model.
- It''s needed to upload a ripped model if anyone was to take my claims seriously, so it has substantial free-speech/academic value. (The ripping program itself is barely functional, and it takes a large amount of knowledge to use in its current form).
- It''s being used non-commercially.
- I''m copying a tiny fraction (< 1%) of the models in the game.




True, if I distributed a game with those models, or if I distributed the whole set of models, then it would be illegal (unless I had a system to ensure that every person who used it has a copy of the game I ripped from). Right now I''m working on the game engine, and once I have that done, I''ll worry about getting legal models.

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Ahem, let me rephase my question:

Is there an easy, user friendly way to get polygon models from console games? Or should I
a)forget it it ain''t gonna happen?
b)get someone to do it for me and email the model to me?

Maybe there is a code or trick to get the camera in the game (in this case, Sonic Adventure 2) to work the way I want(there must be because look at some game screenshots that show the front of the character all the time), and then I can just use a image capture device? But I don''t think that will get all the info for the model to be used in Unreal. And then I don''t know how to get Unreal to recognise it. I''m totally new to doing this mod stuff you know?

Sheesh! What can I possibly do?

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quote:
Original post by Yartrebo
I don''t remember signing any EULA when I bought any of my Playstation games ... PC games might have them, but I''ve never seen one on a Playstation game.


You don''t have to sign or read an EULA. It''s all intellectual property.
As long as you use the stuff for yourself you sure won''t get any problems but as soon as it''s available to the public and it''s noticed you''ll have to drop it.

There have been enough mods janked by id software just for using single textures, skins or models from their games.
20th century Fox nailed an alien mod some years ago for simply using an alien model, although it was all self done. Same happened some months ago to a StarWars Q3 mod that had all original models.
Some model had to be taken down from Polycount already because it was based on an existing character (done from scratch tho) and the company holding the rights for the character didn''t like to see him running around in Q3.
Most companies won''t mind, it''s usually a homage when you do a model based on an existing character but if wanted, you could be forced to take even that stuff down.

Forget all that >1% and sales damage crap. It''s not about that, it''s just about copyrights, that stuff belongs to someone and that''s not you. In the sea of content on the net a lot of theft remains either unnoticed or tolerated, but it''s neither welcome or legal.

I''m since years in the industry and know how it works, have seen IP theft happening eversince and the always wrong alibis of clueless and missinformed rippers trying to backup their actions.


Mario V.
www.strangefate.net
www.digitalextremes.com

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Guest Anonymous Poster
quote:
Original post by Nadine
Ahem, let me rephase my question:

Is there an easy, user friendly way to get polygon models from console games? Or should I
a)forget it it ain''t gonna happen?



There are ways to do this, but I wouldn''t classify any of them as ''easy'' or user friendly.

quote:

b)get someone to do it for me and email the model to me?



That would be illegal.


quote:

Maybe there is a code or trick to get the camera in the game (in this case, Sonic Adventure 2) to work the way I want(there must be because look at some game screenshots that show the front of the character all the time), and then I can just use a image capture device? But I don''t think that will get all the info for the model to be used in Unreal. And then I don''t know how to get Unreal to recognise it. I''m totally new to doing this mod stuff you know?




There are systems that can rebuilt a 3d model from screenshots. These things are generally error-prone, complex, and expensive.

Y''know, it would probably be much, much easier to download milkshape and remodel sonic yourself.

Or perhaps you could download the Quake 3 version of sonic, available here: http://www.planetquake.com/polycount/downloads/index.asp?model=545

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quote:
Original post by Anonymous Poster
>>>
b)get someone to do it for me and email the model to me?
>>>

That would be illegal.



Not necesary, because if you take a models, we are game development, so have a models for study purpose is not strange.. in fact my project used a polycount project only for test purpose (not public).. and now i want to made this project more public, then i need to made some models.

For the legal stuff, remember, GAMES are not sold for you, LICENCES are sell for you!.. what''s the difference?.. you have the licence for play the game, not for modify, sell, take artist/programmer job... So, using a models from a game is illegal, but for study purpose (or for test), it''s not illegal.




-----------------------------------------------

"Cuando se es peon, la unica salida es la revolución"

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Guest Anonymous Poster
nick:MightyPea

i can''t believe you people are so blatantly blind to this.
Art is always intelectual property of whoever created it, or in this case, whoever runs the company it was created for.

and as far as even SUGGESTING to take anything from polycount, without even giving something as simple as "asking permission" a thought, i don''t think you ever put hard labour into something, or put your soul into a piece of art.

if you had, you''d realise you''re using someone''s emotional creation (all art carries emotions) for your own devious, and most likely, terrible game.

strangefate: hehe, cool to see a fellow skinner here, be it a better and more accomplished one

*m

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Guest Anonymous Poster
quote:
Original post by eng3d
Original post by Anonymous Poster
>>>
b)get someone to do it for me and email the model to me?
>>>

That would be illegal.


Not necesary, because if you take a models, we are game development, so have a models for study purpose is not strange.. in fact my project used a polycount project only for test purpose (not public).. and now i want to made this project more public, then i need to made some models.

For the legal stuff, remember, GAMES are not sold for you, LICENCES are sell for you!.. what''s the difference?.. you have the licence for play the game, not for modify, sell, take artist/programmer job... So, using a models from a game is illegal, but for study purpose (or for test), it''s not illegal.



That''s true. It _is_ legal to use the models for a game on your own machine for any purpose. But if you have someone else extract the model and send it to you, that''s unauthorized redistribution, and is illegal.

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Guest Anonymous Poster
Yartrebo:

StrangeFate is absolutely correct. Ripping content off of the media is illegal. Are you going to get caught? Probably not - unless you are foolish and bring attention to the wrong people. Licenses are slightly different depending on the media. PC games usually state that you accept the EULA when you install. Console games probably have a similar mechanism that constitutes "use". Just to cement the point:

From a well known game -

3. Responsibilites of End User
A. Subject to the Grant of License hereinabove, You may not, in whole or in part, copy, photocopy, reproduce, translate, reverse engineer, derive source code, modify, disassemble, decompile, create derivative works based on the Program, or remove any proprietary notices or labels on the Program without the prior consent, in writing of *****.


That pretty much sums it up. Basically your license allows you to ''execute'' the game. Not hack, modify, copy, "RIP", etc. If you privately do any of the above in our own home and it never goes anywhere you will probably never get caught - that doesn''t mean it isn''t illegal. Take Napster for instance. Definitely illegal, but the recording industry could have busted millions of people for "taping" albums throughout the late 70''s and 80''s. Did they? Not practical. Napster is much easier to prosecute because Johnny Law has an entity to go after. Same with speeding on the highway. Most people never get caught - doesn''t mean it''s illegal.


I would advise just not getting caught.. Seems like an awful big headache for some polygons...

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But is it possible to get actual polygonal models from existing games whether it be from PC or console games?

I don''t know how it''s illegal if it''s from a game you already own. By owning and playing the game you are seeing those models all the time. What is the difference if you are playing as those characters in another game? And if you''re doing just for test purposes that should definitely be fine. I mean, think about it this way. There is that Sonic model that was made for Quake 3 and it was also converted for use in Elite Force. Now already that is probably illegal to be using someone else''s character and put it in another game. But if that''s not illegal and if it''s so common, than I don''t see what the problem is about completely ripping models from existing games that you already own. All this does is make sure the model is going to look professional so the character is not poorly represented. This shows that fans love and appreciate the franchise that character came from. Also, I don''t see Sonic Team making a Sonic-based shootemup anytime soon, so if you want use your favourite character to frag maybe another character, this should be perfectly alright.

It goes without saying though if you rip a character from a game and take the credit as making that model from scratch, you''re lying and probably being illegal and in risk of being sued. However if you make your own version of the character or add animations to the existing model, you can take credit for the editing you have done. Atleast I think so.

But past how legal it is, is it technically possible to get a model from one game and put it in another? Is it particularly hard and technical - something only programmers can do?

However Sonic from SA2 is not my only idea. And yeah, I''m just talking about adding them as models for PC shootemups. And that in itself may be a problem. See, the newest shootemup I''ve played is Elite Force (or I will get it - I''ve played the demo), and I haven''t played that many shootemups. Not Half Life, not any Quake, not the new Wolfenstein of Metal of Honour. So I''m a bit out of touch in the genre as far as how far they''ve come in gameplay and visual aspects. As far as I know FPS are made to have a very high fps even on not as good PCs, so that also means the models are always kept low poly so the frame rate will not suffer no matter how many people are playing against each other online. So taking a model from SA2 or another newer non-shootemup game may be impossible because they are made up of a lot of polygons.

So what more can you tell me now that I''ve said all that?

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quote:
Original post by Anonymous Poster
nick:MightyPea

i can''t believe you people are so blatantly blind to this.
Art is always intelectual property of whoever created it, or in this case, whoever runs the company it was created for.

and as far as even SUGGESTING to take anything from polycount, without even giving something as simple as "asking permission" a thought, i don''t think you ever put hard labour into something, or put your soul into a piece of art.

if you had, you''d realise you''re using someone''s emotional creation (all art carries emotions) for your own devious, and most likely, terrible game.

strangefate: hehe, cool to see a fellow skinner here, be it a better and more accomplished one

*m



Well, I must have missed this post! Actually I am an artist myself - I''m in school to get my animation education. I have always loved to create my own characters, and only after I really got into games did I even CONSIDER trying to draw a character that didn''t belong to me just to see how I could draw it. And actually, there was a mis hap with one drawing...

My aunt had asked me to draw a Pokemon character for her son''s hockey team. It would be based on a recognisable character, but different enough to not infringe any copyrights. Well, it was hardly different or else the kids would complain. Anyway, they didn''t use my character and I wondered why. Almost 2 years later I found out. Someone had seen the drawing and somehow got a copy for himself. He changed it a bit and my aunt saw it. The guy said it was his own creation. I don''t know the details, but that character is out there somewhere even though I drew it! And actually, I''m glad it happened with a Pokemon character that I just drew in a different style rather than my own character. If that happened to my own, my hard work would be wasted and I would never be able to use my own character in future games when I get my career started.

And with that said YES I would ask for permission first, but I don''t know how easy it would be to get a reply from any major game companies. With this model idea I''m not trying to "steal" anyone''s work - just be able to play as my favourite character in a game he wasn''t designed for because I know Sonic (and other characters I love) will probably never be in a shootemup - or atleast I want to frag friends and I''d be advertising that series and character for free for the creators.

You know, there are different aspects of the situation. Ofcourse I respect the artists and modellers, especially because I have no knowledge in modelling characters (yet). If I knew how to maybe I would just make it myself, but I really don''t know how, and 3D modelling programs are EXTREMELY expensive. I do respect the artists, and actually, I am so afraid of people stealing my characters that I don''t want to put pics of them online for people to see. As much as I would love feedback from good-natured people on what they think, I know nasty people would steal my characters, as some of them are very unique and I don''t have any way to protect my work.

Whew! I''ll tell you, it''s rare to get a short post from me. If I post, I have a lot to say!

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