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Whats with RPG's???

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I just want to know why everyone (well most) people on this message board want to make RPG''s. Don''t people have any original ideas, instead of trying to make final fantasy or zelda clones why not try and be original and create your own genre of games. Now dont get me wrong i love RPG''s but why does everyone want to make them, what happened to being original. Look at the games around today there all doom clones, if it carries on like this there wont be any other games at all. Please everyone let me know if I''m the only one who feels like this.

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Well why don''t you program one then homie?

SPAR1

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Well I am and have been for the last two months homie!

Edited by - Chris F on 3/8/00 9:19:32 PM

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Well that''s some whack haps dawg... ok, I won''t even try that. I am writing a large online RPG game (writing a DX Class Library right now actually), so I guess I''m guilty too. My motivation was becoming terribly addicted to EverNerf but finally leaving after they kept doing nothing but making it more difficult. Challenge is one thing, 20 hours a week for 4 weeks in the same 2 dungeons, only to gain 5 levels is just plain boring(level 40 - 45).

My game is by no means a cookie-cutter RPG though, it will be different in many ways to EQ, UO, AC, AO, ME... It''s abbreviation will be 3 letters instead of 2, that''s over 50% better. Just kidding, but all games fall under a genre that has already been invented now, except for a very rare few that go in a new direction.

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Chris F says: "Don''t people have any original ideas"

Hello?? What do you think RPG stands for? Roleplaying games!
It''s not at all bound to any genre, I can do a space-, fantasy-, simulation-like-, sport- and action RPG''s just as long as there are roleplaying involved. People here seems to think that RPG is Zelda, FF7, Baldur''s Gate type of games, but it''s not.

The RPG game genre is prolly the biggest one of all game genres, so please rephrase your question Chris.

Also, I''d like you to come up with your own idea, and we''ll see how good you really are.

============================
Daniel Netz, Sentinel Design

"I'm not stupid, I'm from Sweden" - Unknown

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I''m playing paper RPG.
I''m working for the computer industry, and when I saw the different RPG on the market,... I laugh...
They are everything you want except RPG, called them Computer RPG if you want, but you have no freedom, no very good story (ok, Zelda64 is different), and too many restrictions.

I plan to make a RPG, and when I think about it I''ve many ideas about game.
A story, a world, characters, and some features new to CRPG.

I don''t want to make another FF, nor another Zelda, I building an RPG not copying an existing one...

Just my opinion.

-* Sounds, music and story makes the difference between good and great games *-

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Exactly my opinion. People tend to write games they like, like Zelda and FF clones (whatever) but please don''t call them all RPG''s. I''ve never played a game comparable to pen-and-paper RPG''s in my life, so I''ve yet to experience a really good RPG game (although I have to say Daggerfall by Bethesda is pretty close).

Chris F: your question should be more like: "why do some many people make clones?" - not RPG''s.

============================
Daniel Netz, Sentinel Design

"I'm not stupid, I'm from Sweden" - Unknown

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Ok guys, round number two

There is nothing wrong with writing RPG''s ( please don''t sue me ) to learn from and to develop strong technique and Ideas, but unless you have a really sound RPG ( with originality and loads of it ) you would be better off selling an original game.

RPG''s are cool yes, but they are one of the most programmed genre''s. Again an RPG with enough Originality and mixed genre''s could do very well.

My two cents

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Spiff can you please cool it on the cefine and calm yourself down. Over half the letters i see on this board are about people making RPG''s, and however you look at it an RPG is still a clone of another game, i can make a western FPS but it would still be a Doom clone, you can make whatever type of RPG you want it will still be a clone, unless theres some really revoloutionary ideas in the gameplay. What i was saying is that why don''t people come up with original ideas in the true sense of the word, and i am working on an "original" game just for the record although it shouldn''t matter as that was not the point of my post the point was why do most people want to make an RPG, and not come up with their own inovative ideas. I have played countless RPG''s not just zelda and final fantasy but some of the posts related to RPG''s seem to use those games as adjectives to describe their game, thats the reason i mentioned those particular games. I''m not saying that the only games developers should make should be 100% unique but they should atleast try and be somewhat original. If the same clones keep getting made all the games in the future are going to be RPG''s, RTS''s and FPS''s. My point is the gameplay should be original not the story.

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Coming up with a truely original idea is as difficult as moving the sun and as rare as diamonds. I mean, if it were that simple we would all be doing it. Man, how I wish I had thought of Populous, Lemmings... hell, even Tetris. I can program those. I could even program them when the first came out. But I didnt. And I am not rich because of it. I challenge anybody who thinks its that easy to go ahead and do it! The proof is in the pudding (as somebody around here is fond of saying ).

As for RPGs. I have yet to see a proper RPG on the computer, and I seriously doubt I will until -true- AI''s appear. Until then we will just have to content ourselves with the biggest, free-est, most imersive adventure games that we can lay our hands on. The beauty of this genre is that it -isnt- a genre in its own right. As Spiff said, the story can take place in any genre that can be imagined. The real trick to making a -good- adventure game is to provide a felling of space and possibility. This rarely happens. How often have you been playing such a game and yelled at the sreen... "What do you mean, I cant blow the door off its hinges?? Its C4, for crying out loud. It oughta take the building down!", or "Ok, I -know- that I havent found the frigging screwdriver yet, but if I was -allowed- to snap the tip if this knife, I -ought- to be able to unscrew that access panel". Nothing ruins the suspension of disbeliefe more than being railroaded into a single direction, or obvious solutions being ignored by the game designers. I suspect that one of the main reasons why so many people are writting thier own "RPGs" is that they think they can add those missing elements. (Its not the only reason, I know). Admitedly, writing such games are a -HUGE- task, and I doubt more than 5% of these projects ever see the light of day, but if only 1 out of every 1000 ever gets completed, I want to play that game!


--== Rapier ==--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Save the whales, feed the hungry, free the mallocs!

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Rapier: I agree with you in some respects but RPGs still fall into the same genre no matter how different the storyline is, the gameplay (well most of the time) is still exactly the same. I know how hard it is to come up with an original idea, i spent over a month coming up with mine (just the idea) and its still not the next tetris, or even 100% original, but why don''t people atleast try and make a game with new ideas, and new gameplay?

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Because Role Playing Games are the most flexible type of genre. It''s very difficult to create a good RPG and apply a good story to it. It''s also really hard to come up with original yet good ways to portray and do battles. Rpg''s are also really fun to make! They''re one of the few genres of games where you can make a HUGE world and get away with it!

"Remember, I'm the monkey, and you're the cheese grater. So no messing around."
-Grand Theft Auto, London

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Chris F:

I''m sure that the rest of us are interested in hearing about your "original" idea (you can give us a brief overview without giving out too much information). By your definition of "clone", basically any game that has graphics being put on a screen (which is, well, ALL of them) is a clone except apparently for your game.

Zelda is not an RPG. It is an action/adventure game set in a Tolken-esque setting. I think that Zelda 64 is a repetitive bore (I got halfway through it, but haven''t had the temptation to complete it -- it just drags too much in the middle. When I''m playing a game, I don''t like feeling like it''s a chore to complete it). Having swords and magic in a game doesn''t make it an RPG.

My RPG will be set in a Tolken-esque setting. However, rather than being the standard "go here in this pre-scripted event, meet this person and beat him for the Whizbang of Vigor", NPC''s will actually think on their own (somewhat) -- if Mary the wife of Jimbob the Farmer says that her husband just up and left one day to fight the dragon in the Eastern cave, it''s because over time, his motivation moved towards him wanting the gold in the cave, and his greed overcame his common sense. Many "lesser quests" will actually write themselves. Likewise, if you hear that Fred the Destroyer is looking for the Snapple of Strength, it''s because he''s actually LOOKING for the Snapple of Strength... he isn''t going to be sitting there waiting for you for no apparent reason -- so you better hurry. He''ll be asking other NPC''s the location (of course, if he''s a jerk, they probably won''t tell him). Many of the major quests will be loosely scripted. If an event needs to happen at a certain time or place, then it needs to happen -- otherwise, the game will be no fun. Basically, I''m doing my best to make the first real "close to pen and paper" RPG.

Anyway, my point is that, just because things may look like they''ve been done before, doesn''t mean that they have. And for you to say that we''re all making "clones" is very vain of you (and unfortunately now puts you at a disadvantage -- people will now scrutinize your "original" game to death because of your statements of how "unoriginal" everyone is)

-Chris

---<<>>---
Chris Rouillard
Software Engineer
crouilla@hotmail.com

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Chris: Can you pease enlightened me on how you have come to the conclusion that my statements implied that all games with graphics are clones. You have completely misiterpreted my posts, my questions AGAIN: Why are so many people making RPG''s and why aren''t people atleast trying to come up with something new. I mean new in the sense of gameplay not the storyline, which from what I gather from your posts you seem to be doing.
As for zelda 64, well it''s one of the best games I have ever played, and it''s still a semi-RPG. The great thing about zelda 64 was the battle sequences it encompased real time fight sequences into a RPG, something which although has been done before has never been done as good. I also don''t want any of you to think I hate all clones and RPG''s, my favourite game of all time is a RPG (Landstalker for the mega drive).
As for my game well that''s not really the point of my post, and I cleary stated that it is not 100% original, and doesnt use ideas and principles that have been done elsewhere is some form or another. Please read my posts clearly before making such acusations.

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Okay, rpgs don''t have to be restrictive. That''s just how many are, and yet people like them. I enjoy playing MUDs (they ARE rpgs), and have been for 3 years now, there''s a couple hundred MUDs (at least) and I found only one out of about the twenty I tried that I liked.

I think the reason people write RPGs is to make it better than one that they liked. They just happened to like the format of it, so there recoding it. This doesn''t necessarily mean it''ll have even a storyline like the first one. If someone says there coding a FF7 like RPG, their probably referring to the format of the game rather than the storyline.

Despite that though, I do have to agree on the issue of Pencil and Paper rpgs. Those allow so much freedom because they can be made up as you play them. That''s actually a major reason I play MUDs - I like the ability to create new areas to satisfy what I want. And if I get bored with it, I create a new one. That is much of the reason games like Ever
Quest succeeded. They took a game that many people liked (MUDs), and added graphics, the ability to expand, to create your own levels, and people loved the game.

I guess what I meant by all that rambling is that, although to many people are trying to create a "RPG like...." game, that doesn''t mean it''s going to be exactly alike. It''s just a way for the to explain to other people what they want to create.

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Like almost everyone here, I''m working on a game in my spare time (nothing special though). And like many people, it is RPG like. Why did I choose this instead of an original idea?

1) Several people had already stated, it''s hard to think of something original. If you objectively look at the computer game market, there probably are less than 10 totally original games that have ever been made. But most games try to add original elements. Think about new ideas that really improve our lives. Many times they are incredibly simple, and their inventors make millions while other people feel stupid as to why they never thought of it.

2) People like to do what they consider as fun. Why do people have hobbies? Because they like them. Why do people program RPG''s? Maybe they like to program RPG''s, or think that RPG''s are fun. Also, people don''t program what they don''t like in their free time. Personally (I don''t mean to start a flame war here), I can''t stand Zelda or Final Fantasy. I prefer adventure style games like Monkey Island, and as such, if I ever (which knowing myself will probably never happen) finish what I''m working on, will be more like Adventure game style (Lucas Arts games, older Sierra games, text adventures, etc) than Computer or Console RPG style.

3) People might think they can improve on something. Maybe their favorite game was X, but it was missing a feature they thought would improve the game, so they make something similar and add the feature.

4) People might think making an RPG is simple and think it will be a simple task, so they can learn programming and other things at the same time.

5) Some people like challenge. Despite what many people may think, I believe making an RPG is one of the most difficult things to pull off (although I have no real personal experience, as I am only a college student.) Most genres only require good graphics, sound, control, and AI. RPGs can require all of the above, but at the same time feature tons of dialog, and a dynamic world, something which no other genre really has to worry about. And when a person, or a group of people pull of something like an RPG, they have a right to feel just as proud as any other person.

6) RPG''s are the popular genre right now.

7) Like other people already stated, RPG is a very broad and incorrectly used term.

Just several reasons why I think some people choose to make RPG''s rather than other things. Just please try not to be too critical of people for doing what they think is fun.

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I was not being critical I was simply asking why so many people are making (or want) to make RPG''s and why aren''t people coming up with some new ideas for the gameplay in games.
Also I think your wrong about games of other genres not needing as much effort as a RPG. What your forgetting is that what other genres lose in story, dialog and a huge world they make up for in gameplay, and RPG''s in my opinion has some of the worst gameplay out of most other genres. It''s the story and the way the game imerses the player into a fantasy world that makes them good. Other genres perfect the gameplay, RPG''s perfect the story, dialog and the huge worlds needed for them. Also "Like other people already stated, RPG is a very broad and incorrectly used term." is not a valid reason why so many people make RPG''s. Now can people stop saying I''m criticising everyone whose making an RPG and read my questions and statements before lashing out.

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Why don''t people create something original in terms of gameplay? BECAUSE THEY CAN''T

There IS no such thing as original gameplay that is somehow impossible to put into an RPG game. The term GAMEPLAY is actually MORE restrictive than the term ROLEPLAY. When I talk to kids in a silly monster voice, I am role-playing. When me and my friends enact a monty python skit we are role-playing. When I tie my gfriend to the bed post we are role-playing. None of those are GAMES in the traditional sense, they are OLDER than games. Roleplaying is what everone does when they envision themselves as someone else, in a different life, in a differrent place. Roleplay is what you do in your head when you walk out of your 1st viewing of the matrix and you imaging yourself in the saprring program, jumping 20 feet and doing a devastating martial arts move. The human behavior of role playing is the BASIS of storytelling, the CAUSE of ALL forms of non-physical entertainment.

First RPG, aka Role Playing Game is a term that can apply to nearly ANY game in which you are supposed to IDENTIFY with the character(s). In computer games the term has actually become synonomous with the ability of your character/group to advance/change over time. Hence an FPS where your weapons do more damage over time, or an RTS where your armies gain experience, or a turn based tactical game where your units are affected by an ongoing morale, all have elements of RPG. Saying that you want non RPG gameplay is a silly focus to have. And saying that the innovations being made in RPGs are NOT related to game play is even MORE silly. Do you actually think that the gameplay in Bard''sTale, Zelda, UltimaOnline, Diable, and BatMUD are the same just because they are RPGs? In Bard''s Tale you choose how to equip your party, then you walk around mapping things and choosing which spells to cast and when to run. In diable you set up your spells, then you journey into a doungeon and constantly click on monsters until they die, or you decide to run, In BatMUD you walk around getting quests, talking to Human players, finding neat places, joining quilds, building your own rooms, trying to get out of hell, and pissing of newbies or newbie killers, In Zelda you move around and practivce kiling monsters before they kill you. Zelda''s gameplay is move like Mario Bros. than Diablo. BatMUD''s gameplay is more like Zork than Bard''s Tale. Just because they are RPGs means VERY LITTLE about their gameplay. All FPSs have certain elements in common, all RTS games have many elements in common. It is almost impossible to define such a set of common gameplay elements for RPGs, because it is NOT a gameplay limiting genre, it is an ATTITUDE toward games. The idea that character and story are important. That''s all. I''ll admit that there is plenty of room for NON-RPG games, like the Tempest based Action game I would like to code. But there are NOT too many RPG games, just because half of all games are RPGs. RPG is NOT a genre like other genres, it is not defined by it''s gameplay, hence ALL new games ever made could be RPG, and still do anything they want in terms of gameplay.

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Here we go, let''s fuel the flames

Anyway people make RPG''s because they are FUN!!!
They are my favorite genre, and because of that I aspire to make one, one day. The RPG genre is a large one, larger than most others except perhaps sims.

As for your (Chris F) ''original idea'' I''m sure I could reduce it by comparing it to any number of games that exist. Sure you would argue that they are different from yours, but perception is perception.
In the end ''I think'' all games can be compared to something that came before them. If someone makes a rpg that keeps me entertained then that is ''origanal'' enough for me.

And that''s just my opinion, and if you disagree I''m sorry I can''t argue with anyone as I don''t frequent this message board that much.

One person said that the games industry is "a transfer of funds from the rich to the lucky"

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Guest Anonymous Poster
In reply to the message posted just before mine. Your absolutely right, everyone is just copying what is successful and popular. What it has done is to stunt the growth of new ideas. Today''s games ARE NOT as innovative as the last generations series. I''ve found more replay value in old text games than in the latest genre of games that use OpenGL with 32bit color and the latest rendering techniques. Another problem with games deals with your ability to explore. Currently I am playing Unreal which has excellent graphics but really forces you to go in one particular direction; which is a current theme in many games. You have to start at point A then travel to B then to C so you can fight the final boss. Games would be so much better if you had more control over the destiny of your character, getting a cool gun to blow away bad guys for another hour IS NOT my idea of fun.

Now let''s get to RPGs which are very popular. First off from
an experienced stand point, RPGs can be very easy to make. If you serve the net for RPG builders YOU WILL find dozens of them. Go to the QB webring and your likely to find hundreds of QB RPG games. Reason, they don''t have to require use processing time. The graphics can be cheezy, the FX lame and the play control annoying, but you''ve still got a game. If you were to ask an "wanna-be" game programmer to make an id Doom clone, they would probably come up with very little. So really RPG''s can be the "stairway to heaven" of GP for many people. Newbies learn better coding methods, ways of manipulating data and images with little reprecussions on speed because everything within the game is probably going to be inefficient in the first place.

So I hope I''ve made some sense
quote:
Original post by Chris F

I just want to know why everyone (well most) people on this message board want to make RPG''s. Don''t people have any original ideas, instead of trying to make final fantasy or zelda clones why not try and be original and create your own genre of games. Now dont get me wrong i love RPG''s but why does everyone want to make them, what happened to being original. Look at the games around today there all doom clones, if it carries on like this there wont be any other games at all. Please everyone let me know if I''m the only one who feels like this.


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Chris F:

I re-read all of your posts and still came up with the same conclusion.

Your using statements such as "a western FPS is still a Doom clone" and "you can make any RPG that you want, and it is still a clone" lead to my opinion about you believing any game with graphics is a clone (of course, I was exaggerating).

Obviously, with the limited input capabilities of the computer, and the limits to which graphics can excel any more, there is very little we can do about making original gameplay. Any game can be considered based on a single Genre, or a combination of Genres. That''s because the genres have been expanded to include pretty much anything. Even "original" games are based on games of the past (the ultra-original Tomb Raider, which defined the third-person adventure game, can be claimed to be simply an Action-Adventure game along the lines of MDK, even though the game was more puzzle-oriented than shooting-oriented).

Since there is very little innovation left in how games look and play, we''re left with making the back-end and AI more innovative. Hopefully, this will make the game more fun to play.

-Chris

---<<>>---
Chris Rouillard
Software Engineer
crouilla@hotmail.com

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OK I realise some of my statements were a bit exagerated aswell, but the point I was trying to get across is that there are still some "original" games out there waiting to be made we just need to think of them. I'm not saying I'm going to come with the next tetris I'm saying we should at least try and make something unique and I see from some of the posts here that is what some people are trying to do.

Edited by - Chris F on 3/10/00 3:12:52 PM

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I just wanted to share that also i, am making an CRPG.
Im trying to make it skill-based. it''s gonna be like 120 different skills to improve (you get character points at levelup)

and about 1-7 sub-skills to each main-skill
Ie:
MainSkill : Meat preparation
SubSkills: Pig meat
Dragon meat etc...

it''s kinda complicated, if anyones intrested in the graphics part, contact me! plz do... =)

/Jonatan Hedborg myb558j@tninet.se

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JH:

I would recommend lessening the number of skills available in your game -- I have about 60, and I think that I''m pushing it. If you have too many skills, gameplay will get too convoluted. Besides that, you need to have some way in your game to utilize all of those skills (I''ll probably be pruning my list down to 40-50 distinct skills). Having Dragon Meat Preparation is cool, and all, but how often during the game will you actually need to use it?

Too much detail can hurt playability as much as too little detail.

-Chris

---<<>>---
Chris Rouillard
Software Engineer
crouilla@hotmail.com

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