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Why are some of you sceptic about VC++.NET?

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Why are some of you a bit 'sceptic' about VC++.NET and for now rather stick with VC++? [edited by - benhus on May 30, 2002 4:34:03 AM]

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Because it will cost me more money, the IDE is slower, because MS are well known for pretending their latest and greatest effort is amazing when in fact it''s just a trivial iteration of what has gone before, and because it''s only MS/Windows people who have got into the cycle of feeling they need to upgrade something every time something new comes along.

[ MSVC Fixes | STL | SDL | Game AI | Sockets | C++ Faq Lite | Boost | Asking Questions | Organising code files ]

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I''m not a Microsoftie by any stretch (I''m closer now than when I was an active Amigan but VS.Net compile times are much quicker than VC6. While at GDC I sat in on a developer chat with some of the VS.Net team and they claim the code is 10% faster... I haven''t verified this myself... but I''m sticking to VC++6 until I can justify the switch

Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser †

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VC++ only works on Win2k and XP, and lots of people still have 98. (Maybe I''m alone on this one, though)

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Wow, Kylotan! You summed up mine, and I''m pretty sure everyone else''s thoughts! That''s probably the most complete and perfect description of my M$ skepticism!

----
"Caw, caw, BANG f**k I''m dead!" --The Crow

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Hey guys,

I''m using .Net at work now, and it is cooler in some ways, and less cool than 6.0 in others. As with every new ms product they succesfully moved all the settings and stuff around so that you need to go searching for every setting again (like workspace is now called ''solution''). But other than that they put in some pretty cool stuff as well. I like the feature where your workspace can be on a bar that extends when you move the mouse over it, etc. And they _finally_ put in search and replace in multiple files. The scripting/macro''s are pretty extensive as well now, so you can do lots to customize your workspace.

I cannot say if compiling is actually faster, as the machine I''m working on is several magnitudes faster than my computer at home (darn! ). One thing I really think is slow though is when you press build solution when it is already built, it takes quite a long while for .Net to figure out that everything is already fine and dandy.

Anyway, hope to have given you some idea... then again maybe not..

Nick

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Because the compiler is still not as standard compliant as it should be.

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quote:
Original post by Gorg
Because the compiler is still not as standard compliant as it should be.


Well, the question was "why stick with version 6?", as opposed to "why don''t you use VC++ at all?"

VC.NET is a lot more compliant than 6 was.

And I can testify that (as long as you have pre-compiled headers) compile times are significatly faster - at least for my project - from about 2 1/2 minutes to just over 1 minute for a full build. Not bad!


codeka.com - Just click it.

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As Kylotan already said, because it would cost money. More than I want to spend for what I would gain. Period.
As a second argument, IMO if you are not able to accomplish a (real world) task with VC++6.0, it''s 99% that you''re not good enough, and 1% that the compiler is out-dated and you need .NET. Buying a newr/better/faster car won''t instantly make you a better driver, you know.

Forever trusting who we are
And nothing else matters
- Metallica

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I noticed that you guys know a lot about VC++ and VC++.NET

I heard that VC++.NET ATL MFC support webservices etc. Does that mean I can make webservices in VC++.NET that perform better than VB.NET webservices? Can you write apps in VC++.NET that perform better than VB.NET because VC++.NET supports unmanaged code etc?

Can you people give me some info about this?

Thanks

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I think a lot of people think that you have to use all the .net framework and features. I use it as vc++ 7, and it's a hell of a lot nicer to use than 6. The intellisense improvements are worth the price alone.

Also .net and 6 standard editions cost almost the same so there's no reason to buy the inferior version 6.


Helpful links:
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way | Google can help with your question | Search MSDN for help with standard C or Windows functions


[edited by - siaspete on May 31, 2002 5:36:12 AM]

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quote:
Original post by siaspete
I think a lot of people think that you have to use all the .net framework and features.


I doubt. It''s like beliveing that you have to use MFC with VC++6.0
quote:

I use it a vc++ 7, and it''s a hell of a lot nicer to use than 6. The intellisense improvements are worth the price alone.

I disagree. If Microsoft would offer a "better" intellisense module for the VC++6, would you pay a few hunderd bucks for it?

quote:

Also .net and 6 standard editions cost almost the same so there''s no reason to buy the inferior version 6.



Yes. But most of us already have VC++6.0. It''s a big difference between a first-buy and an upgrade.





Forever trusting who we are
And nothing else matters
- Metallica

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Guest Anonymous Poster
The IDE is indeed slower but for those who can afford this luxury upgrade it''s definitely worth it. The C++ support is dramatically improved over that of VC6 (0x1200) and the next SP has the apparent goal of compiling both loki and boost.

The IDE is... hmmm... very nice with lots of cool gadgets. It takes a bit of getting used to because things are slightly different to VS6. It defintely does not directly improve productivity. But it does give you greater control over the organisation of your projects.

The amazing improvements come in the background - especially with the automation. With VS6 automation seemed merely an afterthought and lacked many of the features that made it truely useful. But now you can do everything to the IDE - there''s even objects in there that allow you to manipulate and read the source code in an abstract manner without parsing any text. In terms of developers who need their compiler/IDE for more than just building stuff (meta-data, etc), this represents a dramatic increase in productivity (after a substantial investment in time, that is).

The debugger is phenomenal too. More related to game development, there''s word on the street that with DX9 and VS .NET you will be able to step/debug your vertex and pixel shaders while the program is running. You can poll everything about the GPU state, even the co-ordinates of the current pixel being drawn to screen when you''re stepping through a pixel shader!

For more information on VS.NET improvements related to games, view this stuff:

http://www.microsoft.com/corpevents/gdc2002/

But as has already been mentioned, all this is not needed. In large scale development teams where you''ll get (for example) a single person doing nothing but writing shaders all this stuff is required to keep them moving rapidly (as a programmer''s job becomes more defined and more limited in range, the debugging tools (s)he uses should scale appropriately). However, if you''re a single developer chances are most of this stuff will be classed in the "cool gadgets" section, possibly even "distracting". In which case, VS6 is still a worthy choice.

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I''ve heard some disturbing things about the .NET technology.. like, for example, everyone making apps for it, and then Microsoft turning it into a subscription (paid) service...

Meh. Just what I can remember from some article somewhere.

Superpig
- saving pigs from untimely fates
- sleeps in a ham-mock at www.thebinaryrefinery.cjb.net

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I''m a beginner to C++. But I''m experienced in VB.NET

I want to do some game programming in VC++ and some .NET coding for enhancing my webapps.

So should I buy VC++.NET or VC++ 6

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quote:
Original post by benhus
I''m a beginner to C++. But I''m experienced in VB.NET

I want to do some game programming in VC++ and some .NET coding for enhancing my webapps.

So should I buy VC++.NET or VC++ 6


If you want to do some ".NET coding", you already know the answer.


Forever trusting who we are
And nothing else matters
- Metallica

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Okay, but for some game programming....is VC++.NET good for that?

[edited by - benhus on May 31, 2002 6:04:17 AM]

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quote:
Original post by benhus
Okay, but for some game programming....is VC++.NET good for that?

[edited by - benhus on May 31, 2002 6:04:17 AM]


They say that the C++ compiler is better than the 6.0 version. I doubt that the .NET part of the story will help much in developing games, though.



Forever trusting who we are
And nothing else matters
- Metallica

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I want to use the .NET part for webapps. And unmanaged coding for making games.

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Why I'm sceptical about VS.NET ?

Because M$ has, once again, changed the interface and call this an improvement. Couldn't they just add the new stuff into the old one we were used to ?
Because M$ has, once again, introduced a new language (C#) that looks like an existing one (did someone heard JAVA ?) and they say it's better, without proving it. Can't they create something on their own ?
Because M$ has introduced a structure, .NET, which I don't fully understand yet and I don't know all of its capabilities. How do I know M$ won't use this to take advantage of me (knowing what sites I'm looking to, preventing me from installing software that's not certified, ...) ? Just trust them because they say to do so ?
Because I won't give more of my money to a company who's :
- unable to have ideas
- using its financial power to buy its concurrents (and what about the antitrust laws ?)
- unable to develop stable software (please don't tell me XP or 2000 are stable, they're as buggy as all the others Windows)
- using a name for its most known product that he shouldn't have rights over. Come on, windows is such a common word in software that it shouldn't be copyrighted. How much did they paid the official who were in charge of analizing their second demand for copyright ?
And I could continue for quite a long time this list.
So when I need to develop windows specific apps I use VS6.0 because that's still what I'm used to (damn years of blindness). Otherwise I try to make system independent code and I use GCC with SDL, FMOD, OpenGL and all others cross-platform libraries.


[edited by - trexmaster on May 31, 2002 6:26:40 AM]

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It doesnt really come as a surprise that all the nay-sayers look although they havent actually used VS7, and are just forming their oppinuns on what they have heard from various websites.

Personally I got the student version, and that was a well spent £60 (UK) IMO, just for these reasons:

- STL no longer comes up with thousands of those infamous C4786 errors.
- General STL improvements (i believe they fixed all those bugs dinkumware discovered)
- Ability to disable an warning code across an entire project via a compiler switch
- A better MFC (not much better, but still better)
- An integrated IDE for every language in VS
- Template-template parameters
- Faster compiling
- Better error checking/reporting

And not forgetting the whole DX9 - .NET integration which sounds very nice too.

OK, admittedly I wouldnt have paid more than £200 for this, and i can understand anyone who isnt a student backing out because of the price. Spending £500 for this frankly isnt worth it.

[edited by - sark on May 31, 2002 10:15:41 AM]

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I would never go back to VC 6.0 after writing my first app with VS.NET for writing unmanaged code. I love the editor features and I love some of the new compiler switches. I''ve even written some small managed apps and the IDE makes developing them a total snap.

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