Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Golden unseen use for "Bullet Time"...

This topic is 5592 days old which is more than the 365 day threshold we allow for new replies. Please post a new topic.

If you intended to correct an error in the post then please contact us.

Recommended Posts

Okay so I was sitting here thinking of a action adventure RPG id like to make, one that is more RPG than anything else. Sorta like Dungeon Siege but well of course more rpgish..and I was thinking if you have a party, it would be nice to control everyone but keep the action going...so my golden idea is to use bullet time. Think of this you come across and enemy and you as your main character start whacking on it (just like in dungeon siege) then your other characters start in just like dungeong siege, the trick is you can click your right mouse button or something and go into "Bullet Time"... in which case the action starts playing out still but much slower, where you have time to select each character in your party (via a super effective UI) and then select the type of attacks etc for each characater..thus making it sorta Final Fantasyish because for that "Bullet Time Round" you have selected all the attacks, once the last attack is selected and orders are confirmed somehow (either by it being the last character that can have an action selected or some other way) then the game zooms back to normal speed, and you resume control of whichever character you want...running and attacking with a bit more control ala'' Diablo II. The if you want to change it up again...bam back into Bullet Time. I hate to toot my own horn, but to me this sounds like a very valid and awesome use for the bullet time concept. Hmmmmmm Any thoughts? -Shane

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That''s an interesting alternative to pausing the game. It might even give the illusion of having a little more participation in the battle AND having the control you need at the same time.

And another setting to control how much the action slows down would be a good idea.

Would, in bullet time then, the Orc''s roar go from "Rar!" to "Oooooooorrrrrooooooorrrrrrr"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Anonymous Poster
Freedom Force recently did something like this. IIRC, you can set the pause option to use slow-mo instead of a complete freeze.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nice idea. As waverider said, amount of slowdown could be adjusted depending on difficulty level, etc. This kind of UI feature might also be handy for RTS games.

This technique also helps maintain the player''s immersion (particularly if the control interface is well done), while giving the game a more cinematic feel. As far as the player is concerned, he might be seeing the "ardrenaline rush" his characters experience as they head into battle - less suspension of disbelief involved than in a complete freeze of the action - the world never stops moving.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Exactly, to me the the game play all but stops which is cool, but on a basic technical level the game play is stopping, just the player doesnt associate it that way. Which again I think is helpful for such an Action/Adventure to become an RPG. Let''s face it, RPG''s are very complex and deep (well hopefully)...but after playing the 30+ houred RPG''s doesnt the same battle system get boring? If there were more action it it might be more inticing for 30+ hours of play...but then you have the paradox, lots of action is not conducive to allowing for a deep complex system, and vice versa. But if you could meld the way, as with the bullet time and one hell of a speedy interface, then you have something that starts to shape up and become an actual Action Adventuer RPG.

The rest sorta unfolds then, since its complex its engrossing, and can cause for a great deal of strategic thinking...but since its action orientated its more accessable and since its adventure, its got the "I just need to play for one more minute" attitude thing going on.

I dunno, I personally would find such a game fun.

-Shane

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
see command and conquer, red alert, black and white, cannon fodder, dugeon siege, etc.

this has been done in nearly all rts games since the days of dos. there is a magic feature called timespeed which dictates how fast time moves (thus gameplay). just because there is a fancy name for slo-mo does not all of sudden make it special in some way.

is innovation use old stuff the same way it as been done before?

the only difference is now pcs are fast enough to resample sounds better. most pc rpgs are just rts games with stats and less strategy. also less units to manage (ussually 4 at most).

ideas are easy to come up with, its the implemnetation that makes it worthwhile. just saying "via super effective UI", does not mean you can come up with one, or there is even one, that will suit all players.

dont talk about what should be done. saying you must meld things, and disucssing obvius things is moot. why not try coming up with actual implementation details instead of fanasty world vaporware.


an example of how silly some ideas sound:

yep, i got a great idea. have this great interface, awsome visuals and story telling, coupled with just the right amount of action and naturally deep and ocmplex combat system. though its not complex enough for a newbie to learn, and not deep enough to bore those who dont care about details. ai is second to none with npcs that can actually hold real ocnversations. using ai that can actually understand when ask questions, not just select from predefined scripts. with the best speach to text and text to speach system ever seen, its like the npcs are living breathing ppl you are tralking to.


the key is to actually try implementing your ideas, instead of just thinking them up. there are real reasons why certain things have be done the way they have been. there are limits to what pcs can do as well as what gamers are willing to accept as good gameplay.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well pardon me, I thought this was the idea posters place. If I wanted an implementation, sure I could of done that. But alas working in a box is very bad...hence its good to put a few ideas out on the table, mash through them then come up with an implementation as opposed to spending insane amounts of time programming and applying your implementation only to find out it wasn''t thought through far enough or that it is just not a very good idea to begin with. But I guess some of us are blessed enough to know instantly when our idea is perfection, and can code it in an awesome speedy way and thus get it working almost days after their idea which was so very easy to come to anyway popped into their heads.

I never said bullet time was special, I just said (As I saw in another thread somewhere, people were saying it hasn''t been used as much as it could been.) that there was another use for it. Of course nothing is ever really new, after all no games are different they are all the same, I mean they all put pixels on the screen right?


And by the way, the your silly idea sounds just right almost for a Game Concept Design Document. Of course it has to be hashed out, I mean my "via super effective UI" wasn''t the design document or tech document for my UI...it was simply attempting to stress the point, that such an implmentation of "Bullet Time" would need a "super effective UI" to even have a chance of making the bullet time worth while.

-Shane

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It´s a good idea, but I think it´s been brought up in some discussion of combat mechanics a few months back (it was suggested that the speed or agility skill of the fighter determines the amount of slowdown that occurs).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
Original post by a person
see command and conquer, red alert, black and white, cannon fodder, dugeon siege, etc.

this has been done in nearly all rts games since the days of dos. there is a magic feature called timespeed which dictates how fast time moves (thus gameplay). just because there is a fancy name for slo-mo does not all of sudden make it special in some way.



I think you''re missing the point, although setting the time speed is included in many RTS games, the idea here is that it''s promoted to the player. In a lot of games the speed is generally hidden away in the options menu as an afterthought, whereas instead with this idea the speed becomes a fundamental part of gameplay.

For instance, in Max Payne "bullet time" wouldn''t really have been a significant feature if you had to go to the options menu and turn it on and off. It''d be outside the game, and regarded more as a "cheat" then anything else. However, since they worked it in as an in-game feature it''s considered a significant part of the game.

quote:

is innovation use old stuff the same way it as been done before?



Ah, but that''s the key, it''s not the same as it has been done before.

quote:

ideas are easy to come up with, its the implemnetation that makes it worthwhile. just saying "via super effective UI", does not mean you can come up with one, or there is even one, that will suit all players.



Right, but the poster wanted input on his idea without the UI being a variable, which is why he just assumed that it would be a great UI for the sake of discussion.

quote:

dont talk about what should be done. saying you must meld things, and disucssing obvius things is moot. why not try coming up with actual implementation details instead of fanasty world vaporware.


quote:

the key is to actually try implementing your ideas, instead of just thinking them up. there are real reasons why certain things have be done the way they have been. there are limits to what pcs can do as well as what gamers are willing to accept as good gameplay.




Implementing time slowing is trivial, it''s not really even an issue except working with the sound. Balancing it with the design might be more of an issue, but that''s what we''re here to discuss, eh?

----------------------------------------
"Before criticizing someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
Then, when you do criticize them, you will be a mile away and have their shoes." -- Deep Thoughts
"If you have any trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it''s done." - Scott Adams
FaceHat Software -- Wear the hat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There isn't any harm in talking about it. This is a discussion forum, after all. Some people are going to contribute, others are going to say it's been discussed before. With all the varieties in between. It's best to be aware of that when you post here.

So which is better anyway, Direct3D or OpenGL - JUST KIDDING!!!! ONLY KIDDING, FALSE ALARM, PUT DOWN THE FLAMETHROWER and STEP AWAY SLOWLY

[edited by - Waverider on June 5, 2002 3:41:31 PM]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think its a really cool idea.

Basically, what you''re suggesting is games that allow you to choreograph battles on the fly. Combine that concept with Alone in the Dark and you''ve got a very cool game/film. However, simplistic control bases for such a game would undermine it, eg. without location specific targeting why have all the extra time?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
However, simplistic control bases for such a game would undermine it, eg. without location specific targeting why have all the extra time?

That was my concern as well. Is the "Bullet Time" feature just there to make it easier on the player at certain places (you do the same things you''d usually do, but you get more time to do it), or will it actually be a necessary feature at times (you simply HAVE to activate it in order to take control of the fight)? If you include Bullet Time into your design concept, do you just add it as a ''this would be nice for the players'' or as a ''this will be crucial for gameplay''?

I think one of the best things about the slow-motion mode is that it gives a player more time to do things. Or better yet, it gives players more time to do things BETTER.

Real-time is nice, but personally, for combat, (especially fantasy based combat, which is usually pretty heavy on swordfights) I think real-time is too fast.

How about making slow-motion mode the default setting for combat?

1) it would look really neat
2) it would lighten the load on your processor
(not really sure about this, but seems logical, since the same things are happening, but at slower speed)
3) it would give players the ability to perform more actions during combat, without even giving them the option to pause

At certain times, slow-motion mode might be unavailable to the player. This would be a handicap, as the same things would have to be done in a shorter amount of time.

Example:
After fighting for a few minutes, the character becomes tired, his mind fuzzy. As his concentration falters, the player has to make up for it, by somehow managing to perform the same actions in a shorter amount of time, as slow-motion mode gradually turns into real-time mode.

Of course, if the player so desires, he can undo slow-motion mode at any time (for example, if he''s only fighting some lowly critters that he can easily beat... or, if he wants to create more of a challenge for himself).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don''t wanna set this off at too much of a tangent but inevitably my thoughts are linked in with my own MMORPG engine in development, so if I get many responses to this I''ll start a separate thread. Anyways, does anyone have any ideas how you could implement such a "time slow" feature into a MMORPG? For example it''d be really cool to have a matrix style slowdown to avoid bullets. It''s just not possible though to have time slow down for one player while not slowing down for every other player, and if the other players do not need the slowdown (ie they are not dodging bullets) its just an annoyance.. especially if you''re on a large map with lots of players, having the game time slow down just because someone on the other side of the map is avoiding a bullet would be a nightmare and make the game unplayable.

I had thought about perhaps only slowing time down for the player using the dodge technique, but if you did that, the players outside this players personal time bubble would be moving at normal speed firing off more bullets etc at normal speed. Perhaps rather than try to emulate matrix style effects in game directly that could be a good alternative and fitted into a game idea (some kind of protection device that creates a time bubble affecting a small radius).

Does anyone have further thoughts in that area?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
I had thought about perhaps only slowing time down for the player using the dodge technique, but if you did that, the players outside this players personal time bubble would be moving at normal speed firing off more bullets etc at normal speed.


Look into the Dune defensive suits. They only allowed slow moving objects to penetrate it.

Give characters in an MMORPG some sort of wacky suit that slows bullets in their general vicinity down enough so that they can actually attempt to avoid them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Good points, Silvermyst. Kind of a refined implementation for the Bennetian slow-motion combat bubble. Mephs, I think there are several feasible, creative ways to solve the slow-mo with multiplayer problem (and the Dune idea could potentially work very well).

Barring a Dune shield belt, however, I think that all actions *against* other characters (attacks) should be in slow motion - especially for a 1st/3rd person game (with 3rd being the preferable POV, in my opinion). Keep in mind that this doesn't include normal movement, such as walking or running.

I think that whenever anyone wants to take an action that targets or would in any way affect another player (e.g. bludgeon, tackle, cut in half, shoot an arrow at, throw a rock or spear, etc.) they both enter "conflict mode" automatically, in which their swings/kicks/throws/shots from that point on are slowed down since it's assumed that those actions are directed at the co-conflictee.

With thrown or shot items such as a rock or spear (relatively slow), arrow (fast), or bullet (incredibly fast), the items that are travelling through the air would slow down to a degree that would depend on the attacked person's agility (e.g. someone with poor reaction/reflexes would have trouble getting out of the way of a thrown rock - which would move at nearly normal speed for him, while someone with inhumanly fast reflexes may conceivably be able to dodge a bullet - which he would see moving slowly enough for him to react). Melee attacks *could* work the same way, in which both characters are slowed, but the faster/fastest character attacks at 50% speed while the other(s) attack at a slightly slower speed (such as 40% or 30%) to reflect his *relatively* slower agility/fighting ability.

For surprise attacks, there would be no need to slow down a projectile; it would travel towards the unsuspecting target at normal speed, as though it were directed at an inanimate object.

A key would be pressed if you choose to manually exit (or enter) this "conflict mode". However, if you think the fight is over and you exit this mode, but your attacker persists, you will again be returned automatically to conflict mode. If done right, there should be no need to slow down the entire world, as attacks would be the only things that are slowed.

Aside from exiting this mode manually, it would also stop after a certain amount of time of not being attacked (just the opposite of how you automatically ENTER this mode). Again, keep in mind that if, after a fight, you're walking down the street away from your opponent who you've left incapacitated and bloodied on the ground, and you've not turned off this conflict mode AND it hasn't automatically deactivated by time-out yet, you won't walk slowly at all. This conflict mode would **not affect movement**. You should hardly notice that it's still on, as a matter of fact. But if you were to swing your weapon in front of you for no apparent reason at this time, you'd simply see that it's still moving slowly for the time being.

Anyway, just my take on it

[edited by - Redsix on June 6, 2002 1:24:17 PM]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
first off, i realize this is a game design forum, but many times the "box" should not be strayed from too far lest you come up with things that are way too far beyond implementation. i am not saying i can code ideas rapidly, just pointing out that you should always have how things will be implemented in the back of your mind otherwise when it ocmes time to turn fantasy into reality you may see that some of your features cant be done the way you want, or its just not feasible yet with the power of the pcs. i may have been a bit to adament about this point.

as to the rts using this feature already. true some games did have this as a feture with the menus. myth however allowed control of time via the keyboard in game, while the action was occering. this idea is still not new, nor innovative. its a problem that always plauge rts games, the computer can "click" faster then the player. in some ways this is done by design since ai cant hope to compete with the player stratgical. there just is not enough cpu for the ai to analuze everything. so reaction time, and sight of the ai gets improved. in older games, the ai could even build units faster then the player (ie c&c).

the slow down effect would use the same if not more cpu since you have to resample sound to play slower, as well as do more physics calculations otherwise you deal with aliasing problems.

slowing down only attacks is pointless since now you are moving faster instead of slowing time down. its the equivlent of speeding movement up but not weapons. this is undesirable since the movement vs weapon speed should remain constant otherwise you might as well just have super slow weapons and explain it by saying the enviroment affects them differently then then ppl.

also by having this unbalanced time flow system you unwittingly add problems when ppl run in front of projectiles that destined for them. ie a fast player and slow player are next to each other, a third player fires at the fast player, the slow player no benefits from the fast player time flow. the oppisite could happen as well.

implenting ANY player time flow altering scheme disallows mulitplayer since the server can only run things with a certain time step. players running in slo-mo would get behind the server, missing newwr data. players running faster then the server would be forced to wait for the server, thus effectivly dropping them to the server speed. these are some of the implemnetation details is speak of, you dont need actual code to include them in your design plan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The major issue with "bullet time" is its failure to work well in multiplayer games.

I think I have come up with quite the cool solution :-)

Slow down objects relative to their proximity to the user of the bullet time. For example, if I was duking it out with someone accross the map and I wanted to dodge a bullet some sniper shot at me I would slam bullet time and jump out of the way. Now the person who I was beeting up with my bare fists would also be at maximum slow mo while the bullet that was coming in at us would gradually slow down as it came closer.

And that would definitly be very cool to see some people having a slow mo battle. You could try to go join the fun, but you would find that you gain no advantage because you move at the same speed as them.

-SniperBoB-

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
but there lies the exact problem SnprBoB86, what if the player does not want to enter slo-mo leaving himself open to ppl who are running normal? think in terms like this:

you have player A, B, C, D
player A is the sniper
player B is the target
player C is the person Player B is doing melee combat with
player D is watching from afar

it is assumed "bullet-time" is designed in your idea only for dodging attacks. the area affected is like a bubble in which the effect is diminished (ie kinda like gravity from a planet). most likly use a exponetial falloff since we dont want the influence to spread to far.

player A fires sniper shot at player B. player B dies. simple enough, player B dont know about player A shooting at him. i guess introduction of auto "bullet time" is required. so i guess we should assume player B just "knows" he needs to activate "bullet-time", maybe caught a glimpse of the sniper.

now player B and player C slow down. the bullet slows down as well, as it enters the bubble. player D takes advantage with his automatic weapon, and fires a volley of rounds at player B and C. naturally the bullets slow down as they enter the bubble, but this means that player D gets a chance to reload, even before all the bullets have finished travelling. now he can fire even more bullets, which will all get slowed by the bubble allowing his new bullets to catch up. almost forming a wall of bullets which becomes almost impossible to dodge. the natural argument, slow down all the weapons, which means slowing all players on the server which brings it to the problem, now any player can slow other ppl. creating very annoyed players. i know i would hate to be lining up a shot on someone who was running, then some guy adealing with someone else slows me and my target, thus causing me to miss. you may say, get better aim, and adjust. thats just the thing, at any point in the game i could be slowed down without warning, turing things into a potluck. yeah you could limit use, but since only one player would need to use it at a time, it could create a scenario in which everyone uses in turn (ie player A uses it a bit, then when it ends, player B decides he needs, soon after player C feeks the need, and its quite possible player A may have recharged the meter and it begins again).

another idea thrown around (since before max payne was released), was to allow only a single player to control the timeflow. this allows the best compromise, but one if its a red rover (ie only the person it, when killed causes you to score. or if you are it and kill others) type gameplay. this allows the best compromise between time control and playability. the original reason for bullet-time was to be like the other action movies (almost any directed by john woo) which the hero makes amazing shots and almost dosges bullets. you can only get this if the entities being affected by the timeflow changes dont mind it. ussually this is only obtained if you have on person controlling the timeflow, and the others are ai who DONT use the time flow change to their advantage. because if they did, you might as well have the entire game as played in slo-mo.

btw, i tend to point out the negative only to show you some flaws your rose colored classes will tend to miss when viewing ones own idea. i can tell you are pointing thought into things but are not thinking about gameplay issues and how players would react. maybe someone should implement a simplised version as a quake3/hl/ut/pick your multiplayer game mod and test out the idea with others in a real enviroment. doing this in quake3/hl/etc will not be too tough, and you could just care about weapons like the rocket, gernades, and other "simple" weapons. anything automatic is difficult because of the shear amount of bandwidth required to represent all the individual bullets accuratly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Actually I welcome those comments =) it''s great to see the idea thrown around a little. Though I''m never one to give up on an idea because an implementation hasn''t YET been devised for it. I think given time I could come up with a system that is feasible and iplementable. I''m still busy working on my map parser right now, but once finished and I move onto adding input to my engine, I''ll certainly consider timeflow elements. I like the time flow proximity belt type idea. Slowing a bullet as it nears you. The wall of bullets effect could be avoided by slowing bullets less, thus even automatic fire may have difficulties in creating such a wall of lead. Also, so what if theres a wall of lead coming towards you, it''ll be moving slow enough for you to side step it!!

Of course I dont want to render skill into oblivion, so I don''t think I''d make it so slow as to make it stupidly easy as you''d be as good as invincible, I''d just slow the bullet enough that it were as fast as say a slightly slowed down rocket in Quake 3.

Actually when I was thinking how to describe the speed then, I thought of throwing a ball underwater and how the speed would exponentially decrease as the water resisted more. Maybe this could be used as a concept behind some kind of an armour, projectiles with low velocity will not reach the target, wheras projectiles with high velocity would make it to the player but inflict reduced damage due to loss of velocity. That could make for a really cool original concept for armour, shock reduction via energy field, effectiveness determined by projectile velocity.

Hmm, rest assured I''ll ponder upon this one some more... oh and I have never played any of the Dune series so I''m unfamiliar with that particular method.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Four and a half solutions I can think of.

Assumption: bullet time is heightened perception.

C, represent bullet-time as hypersensitive mode allowing player added dexterity at normal speed. eg. whereas player might normally have to steer towards a door, in hypersensitive mode they simply click on the door and their reflexes do the rest. Lacks cool.

B, spidey-sense - player is aware of bullet danger ahead of bullet trajectory (equivalent with "you are being targeted"). Lacks specifically slo-mo cool.

A, shooting a player puts them in a time loop, which they have a 50/50 probability of emerging from depending on availability of bullet-time within that loop. Externally, represented as an anim loop; internally, represented as bullet time with or without player control (depending on bullet time availability). Half as cool.

Aa, shooting a player sends them into another time dimension from which they may or may not teleport out of at a later game time. Cool but bizarre.

0, game is designed in such a way that whenever someone enters bullet time, everyone else enters third person movie mode. Difficult to integrate as ongoing feature of game.

Problem: you can''t impose heightened perception on others, without subtracting their subjectivity.

That new EA Street basketball game has shared bullet time. I believe it works for three reasons: everyone is in third person from a shared pov; there is one focus of attention, the basketball; whenever bullet time begins, there is something worth watching. You may be able to extract general constraints from this example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Want to make it even cooler?! Bullet time in Max Payne was awesome, but it was missing an integral part: Motion blur. If your characters move forward while they''re attacking, have their animations be blurred. That''d be wicked cool.

Eternity is relentless

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
technically, blurring only occers for fast moving objects. its a way for the brain to sense motion and determine where something came from as well as speed, and our eyes are limited to a refresh of 30hz which increases to 60hz as you go towards perphiral vision. slo-mo motion blur would not occer. if anything, normal motion blur (ie see in the game during normal time) would be the only blur visible. though since this would make things more difficult to see (since the blur is more apparent then it was during realtime) we would have a more difficult time viewing the action. not to mention the massive increase in fillrate by an inverse factor of the timefactor used in the slomo. this increase owuld cause framerates to dip heavly during a slmo sequence since you need to blend more frames together, since effectivly you should be be blurring an avg of frames that occer in a certain time range. this time range (ie exposure time) would now have more frames then before (since time is slowed, frames per time unit increases). this is basically saying we are using a high speed camera (ie less blurring) and playing the frames back at "normal" speed.

retend we have a 20hz camera and a 100hz camera. now if we play the 100hz action back at 100hz its normal speed. if we play it back at 20hz we get slomo with sharp images. if we playback the 20hz at 100hz, we get fast motion. if we play back the 20hz at 4hz we get blurred slomo (since we are just showing frames longer then they should, just like the 100hz "film'' at 20hz example). starting to see how things change?

games tend to have cameras that are "perfect" )ie not blur at all), since motion blur is costly. even with some minimal motion blur, it appearence would not increase during slomo time, it merely seems increased due to seeing the normal frames of animation longer then usual.

long story short, motion blur while looking cool, would only be realistic if motion speed was increased. also even if added to slomo, it requires an increase in fillrate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have a brainwave about how to implement bullet-time in multiplayer. You design it as an area effect that is triggered by a player at a certain location . Bullet-time is then experienced as a speed modifier (exponentially) proportional to the distance from that location. To give the player responsible an advantage, you then allow them a slight positive speed modifier within that bullet-time bubble!

This way, you can have bullet-time with any number of players!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yeah, I think area effect is the best way to go. It should be limited, and maybe you''d have two dimensions, normal speed and bullet speed. When players or objects are in a bullet speed area they slow down unless they enter bullet time themselves. Depending on how long bullet time lasts you could end up with cool fights where everything (bullets, cars, other moving stuff) except the players is in slow mo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Better still, make Bullet Time part of the story. Make it so your lead character is holding some magic crystal that allows him/her to slow down time for the party. You could weave the crystal into the plot as some major plot element.

''Your theory of a donut shaped universe is intriguing Homer'' - Stephen Hawking

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites