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Critical_Waste

So you want to make an MMORPG?

51 posts in this topic

Is there anyone here working on a MMORPG after already having worked on another online game with similar functions but on a much, much smaller scale? (Like ::shameless plug::, a design I''m fleshing out now. ) I have to ask, because I''m seeing more help wanted posts for MMORPGs than anything else lately. I don''t have anything against the genre, but they seem overly ambitious (but not impossible!) for the hobbyist/amuteur game dev types that hang around these parts. I don''t want to discourage people here from the genre, but I''m currently under the impression that MMO games have QA and customer service issues an order of magnitude beyond any other type of game. Personally, I''d want to know if I could entertain a 4-player simultaneous game before I try my hand at a 400-player game. On the other hand, I could just be the conservative odd-man-out here in wanting to start out simple.

-The Well-Suited Punk-
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I just want to remind you guys that an amateur is much different than a newbie. An amateur programmer is simply someone who does not program professionally. They can be a beginner or a very advanced programmer. A newbie, on the other hand, is someone who is very new to programming/game design/whatever. When people on this forum say that newbie''s should not attempt to make their first game a MMORPG/Quake-killer/etc., they are not necessarily talking to amateurs . Khelz mentioned two amateur online games. They were not made by newbies, but by amateurs (as Khelz says). Both games have been around for quite a while, and I find it hard to believe that these were the first games ever created by their respective staff.
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I just want to remind you how negative you have actually put amateurs.

You say an amateur can be a very skillfull programmer. Sure. but he still is no par for a professional programmer. Would a skillfull amaeteur, mathing the skills of my best professional programmer here, come and want to work for us, he would NOT be a senior developer, but a junior (ok, maybe not for long) and definitly NOT get the same pay, though his skills might match.

Why?

Because programming is only part of the life of a programmer. Projects need t obe managed, schedules need to be maintained. Features need to be cut. Software needs to be planned with maintenance in mind. Certain procedures for multi-developer-development needs to be learned. And finally, a certain experience needs to be gained. And HERE the amateur fails.

An amateur will never have the same experience level than a professional, not in areas that require investments. Simple sample - show me the best amateur web developer who made a CMS (Content Management System). Then have him proove that it scales to 100.000 users. Proove - like in having 100 machines simulating 10000 users each and hammering away. Sure, he might be skillfull, but he has lacked the tools and has never really gained experience in certain areas.

now, specially in MMORPG''s you have two critical parts - the client and the server. On the Client, and amateur might be very skillfull and be on the verge of becoming a professional. After all, we "only" talk of Direct3D as the hardest part, and every amateur can have a top notch graphics card and raise his skills.

On the server we should talk of massive, persistent. Here, sadly, it shows that most professional companies should have spend money for professional developers of commercial software. Here we talk of high availability, databases, massive paralellism, large servers. And NO amateur can have accumulated enough experience here to be more than a Junior developer for at least one year.

I really must laugh (sorry) when I read about Gangwars and 1024 parallel players. Proof, please. Were 500 players EVER connected at the same time, even when they only consisted of test scripts? Is the code using a SELECT approach of programming the sockets of a slow and non-scaling threading approach? A claim that 1024 users can connect just because 1024 sockets can be opened is ridiculous.

I agree, too, on another area - sadly as I must say. At the moment it looks like a TON of MMORPG''s are coming out. Tons of are in development, and the market might be too small. Now, there is ONE thing that needs to be accepted here - you can be successfull if you are DIFFERENT. Better is not going to cut it - if you are better, then you have to be WAY better, and the other companies are still - well - there with a lot of customers and resources. Also, most MMORPG''s right now are EXTREMELY bad in their ruleset. DAOC? CRAP. TOTAL CRAP. I played it a while - at lvl 12 I was unable to be usefull in a group of lvl 15 characters. TOTALLY USELESS. The casual player can not compete with his more hardcore friends at all, not even support them - the class curve is WAY too steep. Well, it is all the game has. Everquest is in the same area - hack and slash, and a totally broken ruleset.

An MMORPG neets to be different. Wonder whether anyone ever thought of making one in old rome, making players part of a larger system. Mixing an economic simulation with strategy, politics and some character building. Give them something to compete on, and give them slaves (for the small manual work). Hm, might be an idea, after all - fighting in the colosseum and so. Leading troops into large battles, or establishing trade routes all over the known world. Getting a place in senate. Hm, oudns not too bad. This would be totally different from the current and primitive experience - which, btw, is SO primitive that it really sucks.

Regards

Thomas Tomiczek
THONA Consulting Ltd.
(Microsoft MVP C#/.NET)
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I think its hard to code an MMO, but its quite possible. You could take Faldon for an example. The main developer was an 14-15 year boy, who finished the first alpha in 1 year or so(he got help from his brother and a friend, mostly in the matter of graphics stuff). it had, bugs, yeah, just like expected for ANY recent released games,it would have new patches like from week to week. But i would say that it worked. The project has know 4 years as i can remember. It had like 120 peoples when i first started playing, i dont know how big it got cause i stoped playing. this is the site:
http://www.illusorystudios.com/faldon/

if (ansi c++ && windows.h)
whooraay!!
else
ok, lets do those cheats.
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quote:
I really must laugh (sorry) when I read about Gangwars and 1024 parallel players. Proof, please. Were 500 players EVER connected at the same time, even when they only consisted of test scripts? Is the code using a SELECT approach of programming the sockets of a slow and non-scaling threading approach? A claim that 1024 users can connect just because 1024 sockets can be opened is ridiculous.


Well, I''m not really seeing the problem with 1024 simultaneous users. Maybe if you''re using TCP for everything (which NO game programmers use because of the speed issues), but do you really need to? You can''t tell me that every single stupid bit of information requires the reliability (and inherent overhead) of TCP. Quake, UT and Everquest programmers don''t think that TCP is necessary for any but the most vital of information and most of the time not even for that. Of course, I believe that EQ was originally built with TCP, though I think that a lot of their communications has changed over to UDP now.

Use UDP. The solution to network games is NOT TCP. It''s too slow. Reliable UDP is faster in nearly all situations, gives you the same level of reliability that TCP has and requires fewer resources, so long as the programmer knows what he''s doing.
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quote:
DAOC? CRAP. TOTAL CRAP. I played it a while - at lvl 12 I was unable to be usefull in a group of lvl 15 characters. TOTALLY USELESS.


I don''t know, when I was 11th level I was regularly grouping with level 15 players and was invaluable to them. Maybe it was your play style.

quote:
The casual player can not compete with his more hardcore friends at all, not even support them


That''s kind of the point. If I play 14 hours a day, I don''t WANT someone that plays 2 or 3 hours a day to be able to compete with me at all. I have between 5 and 7 times his investment, why should he be able to compete with me? Let''s see... I spend 150 hours in-game and someone with 45 hours should be able to compete with me? Of course, that means that someone with only 15 hours should be able to compete with the person with 45 hours... how far is the person with 15 hours from the person with 150 at that point? Not very. What about the player with 1500 hours? How much more powerful should he be when compared to the player with only 250 hours? That''s like saying that someone with a couple of years in an army should be at around the same level of experience as someone who has 10 years in. Your expectations are unreasonable.

If your friends want to play with you, they should create a character that they play when you''re online. You shouldn''t use the fact that you don''t have any time to play to justify making a game where progress is nearly non-existent.

BTW, just so you know, I''m not a powergamer. I have a family that I love to spend time with and a full-time job. That basically means that completing Diablo2 took me over a month. Hitting level 42 in Everquest took me well over a year and a half. I probably could never finish Morrowind, no matter how hard I try. I also understand that someone who has that time investment deserves to have a better character. You may not like it, but it''s reality, just like your job. You work longer, you usually get paid more. If you''re a better player you''ll be able to get those levels faster, but that''s really an exception, not the rule.
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quote:
Original post by Khelz
www.nightmist.co.uk
-> 40 to 60 players online, server running on a simple cable modem (that kind of connection runs 24/7 and is accessible to everyone).



I wouldn''t call 40-60 players MMO... Someone may be able to code a MMORPG and even run it (to some extent), but most amateurs won''t get very far. I have no problem with kids that know some netcode and some 3D code building an online RPG, but a lot of the amateurs supposedly "developing" and MMORPG just can''t do it. They don''t have the skills or the drive or the time or whatever. Just look at most amateur MMORPG pages. They''ll have some bad 3D renders that they''re passing off as "screenshots" a few paragraphs on "evil empires", and some more stuff on how their game will "revolutionize the industry" and is "better than Everquest." An amateur can make an MMORPG (or at least an online RPG) if they design it within their limits, but most of the projects out there (80-90%) that amateurs propose are barely within the limits of the best professional studios.

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quote:
Original post by Khelz
I''m just gonna give two examples of successfull amateur MMORPGS (Graphical Mud-style).

www.realmsofkaos.com
-> 200 to 300 players online at the same time, growing community, server running on a T1.

www.nightmist.co.uk
-> 40 to 60 players online, server running on a simple cable modem (that kind of connection runs 24/7 and is accessible to everyone).

Well those games are both free. Okay that''s not a full 3D
everquest but that''s an EVIDENCE that amateurs will not be able to do better in terms of techniques and performances than professional companies. I''ve never seen a newbie claming to do better than professional companies (or they''have to be really stupid). BUT there''s more place for creativity in amateurs projects, that''s why I believe in them, and that''s why I don''t laugh at someone who wants to get into MMORPG programmation.


------
GameDev''er 4 ever.


Add dransik to that list.. i play the hell out of dransik, i love it.

www.dransik.com

it''s circa ultima IV graphics, but it''s fun nonetheless.

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quote:

Add dransik to that list.. i play the hell out of dransik, i love it.

www.dransik.com

it's circa ultima IV graphics, but it's fun nonetheless.




Is Dransik really "amateur"? I heard it's going to cost money to play now...



My Stuff : [ Whispers in Akarra (online rpg) || L33T WAR (multiplayer game) || The Asteroid Menace (another game) ]



[edited by - Khaile on June 25, 2002 11:04:33 AM]
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Just as a side note in regards to TCP vs. UDP.

Well, solinear - so you think that TCP is not suited for a MMORPG and UDP should be used? I have a hint for you - you kill a lot of your customer base.

UDP is not connection based. This means that no NAT system is going to support your custom UDP protocol. Support is bad for DirectPlay (which is UDP based, but it is from MS and "official") and will be non-existent for your custom protocol.

Means all the users behind NAT can not use it.

Now, we dont talk of all the geeeks with their own routers here - we talk of the customers of a lot of DSL providers, cable modem companies etc. that ARE using NAT.

Sad, but true.

So, DirectPlay - well, an argument ("Sorry, Mr. Provider but you do not support what?"). TCP - an issue. But UDP - avoid it as long as possible.

Thomas Tomiczek
THONA Consulting Ltd.
(Microsoft MVP C#/.NET)
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quote:
Original post by thona
...
So, DirectPlay - well, an argument ("Sorry, Mr. Provider but you do not support what?"). TCP - an issue. But UDP - avoid it as long as possible.
...




I was understanding that TCP is useless for (most) multiplayer games. I''ve seen many articles on gamasutra that say if you use TCP for a multiplayer game then you are dead in the water. My favourite quote: "TCP is evil. Don''t use TCP for a game. You would rather spend the rest of your life watching Titanic over and over in a theater full of 13 year old girls."

TCP is far to slow and it''s reliable service is more of a penality then a benefit for most data. Consider player positions. Having a reliable service for every move update is not realistic. If TCP has to resend the packet it is pointless since the player has already moved in that time. It is better if the packet was just dropped.


-------
Andrew
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Well, then how do you get inbouind UDP packets through a NAT router?

I am currently in germany. The only cable modem provider here puts you behind NAT.
I knwo a lot of ADSL companies in the US put you behind NAT.

Just answer - how do you handle this with UDP?

I agree on the "better suitability" of UDP in THEORY, but practically you are blocking more and more potential customers.

Well, maybe it is just me thinking that a game should be played by as many people as possible, as I have financian intentions.

As such, I dont care that UDP is better, because UDP is not usable. Period.

Thomas Tomiczek
THONA Consulting Ltd.
(Microsoft MVP C#/.NET)
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UDP does work with NAT, but a certain style of programming has to be followed for it to work correctly. HalfLife/TFC uses UDP, and I play that through a proxy/NAT system.

On the point of 'Leveling Treadmill' games, yes they are evil, they aren't good for business in the long run either.

Casual gamers just starting the game will quickly realise that they can *never* compete with established players who play 8+ hours per day, causing them to become disillusioned with the game and leave it.

[edited by - Ixpah on June 25, 2002 1:49:47 PM]
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Exactly my saying. I dont want vcasual gamers to be as powerfull, to be as rich etc. as the hardcore gamer, but I want groups of friends with mixed attitudes to be able to work together.

When you are lvl 12 in DAOC and your friend is lvl 20, there is NO sense in you two making something together, as he either gets no XP (and no drops), or you dont hit at all (emphasis: at all).

If he would be a little stronger, but you would still be a good backup, you could still spend some time together and have fun. Maybe he would buy you some better equipment with his money, to help you out.

But you would still be useful.

IMHO the levels (ok, their strength) could be related with other things - let character stats max out, and then work with good, reputation etc., and create a system where you can lend such. a high lvl character gets the permission to carry a good gun and can lend this or extend this to his current group. After the adventure the less known character has to give the gun back, as alone he lacks the necessary permission.

Casual gamers are a huge market.

I myself played DAOC 2 months ago :-) Now, after a lot of work, I think of going back in. But what for? Finding new friends etc.? Hm, no, in a month I have a hot phase again and cant play for some weeks. So what do I do? Orecisely: I quit the game.

Thomas Tomiczek
THONA Consulting Ltd.
(MIcrosoft mVP C#/.NET)
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quote:
Original post by thona
Well, then how do you get inbouind UDP packets through a NAT router?

I am currently in germany. The only cable modem provider here puts you behind NAT.
I knwo a lot of ADSL companies in the US put you behind NAT.



Hmm. I''m not sure of the situation in Germany but I don''t think that this is a common pratice in North America. If an ISP gave you a NAT''d IP then it would cause hell for a lot of other applications as well. All the searches I did on www.google.com said that if your ISP gives you a NAT''d IP then look for another ISP .

But again, I''m not sure if European ISPs operate differently.

UDP can work though a NAT''d network. I''m NAT''d on my machine but I just port forward to this machine.


quote:

I agree on the "better suitability" of UDP in THEORY, but practically you are blocking more and more potential customers.

Well, maybe it is just me thinking that a game should be played by as many people as possible, as I have financian intentions.

As such, I dont care that UDP is better, because UDP is not usable. Period.



This does not sound like a good plan to me. You should be trying to make the best possible game. If you have to sacrifice performance ( and in this case maybe greatly ) then you may end up with nobody at all playing the game and therefore nobody willing to pay for it.


Of course all of this is IMHO..


-------
Andrew
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I''m a powergamer, not a casual gamer. And I completed diablo2 within a single week (Something like 3 days I can''t remember.)

Yes, casual gamers are a huge market, but they''re incredibly demanding and hard to tap into. For example a little kid that would only play MMOG related to DBZ and he''s got to play Goku. Add on top of that they have very minimal loyalty toward the game. Meaning six months later when a better looking game is released, the chances of losing the casual gamers are very high.

quote:
Original post by Ixpah
Casual gamers just starting the game will quickly realise that they can *never* compete with established players who play 8+ hours per day, causing them to become disillusioned with the game and leave it.


I''m getting sick of hearing argument like this. I have heard of it many countless times over 5 years worth of mud/UO/EQ but not once have I witness anyone ACTUALLY quit because of it. The problem isn''t one playing 8+ hours a day and the other dosen''t. It''s the game forcing players to "compete" against one another for loot, mob xp, or other things. So making everything geared toward casual gamers by elminating the "level treadmill" dosen''t really solve a damn thing and you''ll just be alienating the hardcore ones.
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I followed this discussion now for a while and some parts of it sound really really strange to me

Ok as explained above there are two kind of newbies: the newbie who never designed / coded / maintained a game before and the "newbie" amateur who got some skills in various areas of design, coding, etc.

@thona

If you dont have the skills simply obtain them. Grab some books on the subject do some research thats the way someone can learn things. Or how do you think that the "professionals" did obtain them ? Generally not by sitting around in their offices looking at the computer and saying "Hell today I simply make some server and database backend". Some firms who you would like to call professional were started by amateurs (take Valve Studios and Mythic Entertainment as some quite successfull examples).

Funding isnt a problem either if you got some successfull looking project and are eager to find a some money givers you will *perhaps* find them.

@dunno who wrote that
60 -80 players sound quite massive to me cause they range in the same region as "massive multiplayer" tribes 2

My 2 cents
Regards
N.O.P.

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NextOnePlease - dont tell me how to become a pro. Frankly I assume that I am nearly the only one here who has successfully built up a business that involves high quality.

No, just reading a book does NOT help. We etablished a system of apprenticeship.

Thomas Tomiczek
THONA Consulting Ltd.
(Microsoft MVP C#/.NET)
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Oh, a last point on the TCP/UDP issue and providers.

I fully agree technically and by heart - UDP based protocols are way better suited for anything time critical than TCP, and a provider putting you bwehind NAT is not a seriousprovider. That said, they are there and rising.

Whatever comes, I would go a third way anyway: Using DirectPlay - it has a lot of stuff in it that I would need to code myself otherwise. And it is UDP based. At least, it also has some followers and is properly documented, so if the stupid NATting provider does not support this, then it is better to argue with a "used semi-standard" than with my own developed protocol.

Inbound routing, btw., is also not always a solution - nice that someone thought of it. Realistically, how do you change the inbound routing on your provider''s router? Or how do you handle multiple internal receipients? No way.

Frankly, I start hating this topic - we do some commercial video conferencing software for a customer, and we have extaclty this problem: RTP (udp) based streams and NAT. SOME groups out there do not even support SIP or H.323 gateways. And we have made some extensive research into this - the "not really ISP''s" are coming, and the users are not really aware of this. Means: what they normally do is normally TCP-based (web surfing, chating etc.) and just works, and then certain things just dont work. SHIT.

Anyhow, IMHO the best way to go is using DirectPlay - besides being a conevenient API, too, it is more standardised and hopefully will be found in any professional NAT router.

So, enough ranting over bad providers :-(

Regards

Thomas Tomiczek
THONA Consulting Ltd.
(Microsoft MVP C#/.NET)
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quote:
I wouldn''t call 40-60 players MMO...


Why not? Verant did. During beta, their best servers could handle a load of around 50-75 users, more if a portion of them were inactive. Each ''zone'' is a separate world technically, you just move between them. As better equipment became available, the usercap increased, but that''s just the nature of computer hardware, whatever supports 50 today will support 85 in a year and 150 a year after that. Citrix recommends you only use a maximum of 50 users per server, we regularly get 75-100 without the users noticing. The 50 was recommended for a quad, we''re running 75-100 on a dual.

quote:
I dont care that UDP is better, because UDP is not usable. Period.


Maybe it''s not usable by you. Everyone else seems to find it just as usable as TCP. I never suggested to hire someone that is incompetent at network programming and I''m not sure where you got that.

quote:
Anyhow, IMHO the best way to go is using DirectPlay - besides being a conevenient API, too, it is more standardised and hopefully will be found in any professional NAT router.


Do you actually know the difference between an API and a protocol? DirectPlay is NOT a protocol, it is an API that utilizes EXISTING protocols (TCP and UDP). What you are suggesting makes about as much sense as saying that the router will support Microsoft Word 2002. Neither DirectPlay or Word 2002 are protocols, so it''s irrelevant whether it ''supports'' them or not.

quote:
Casual gamers just starting the game will quickly realise that they can *never* compete with established players who play 8+ hours per day, causing them to become disillusioned with the game and leave it.


Really? Why don''t you explain the 200k casual gamers who have played EQ for God knows how long. They don''t have 400k powergamers playing their game. I know because I only know a few powergamers, all the rest of them are casual gamers. Even some of the people who spend 30 hours a week playing are casual gamers.

It''s a style, not a time devotion. Powergamers can hit the level cap in 3 hours a day faster than a casual gamer can in 8 hours a day. It''s how they play. I know one person who spends 8 hours a day during the week and 12 on the weekends playing EQ. He has been playing for almost 2 years now and JUST got his first character to 60th level. His next highest is level 35 or so. I know a couple of powergamers who play maybe 20 hours a week that hit the level cap within a few months of starting and ended up with 4 characters over 50 last I knew.

Reality is that casual gamers aren''t playing to compete with the powergamers. If they are, they''re idiots. The same reason why a casual ''mom&pop'' computer store worker who tries to do the same networking stuff that I do day in and day out is an idiot. The same reason why I would be stupid to go out and pick up a random pile of components (if I hadn''t spent 2 years working at a mom&pop) and trying to build a wonderfully stable system.

quote:
Casual gamers are a huge market.

I myself played DAOC 2 months ago :-) Now, after a lot of work, I think of going back in. But what for? Finding new friends etc.? Hm, no, in a month I have a hot phase again and cant play for some weeks. So what do I do? Orecisely: I quit the game.


Um... you very obviously don''t know much about the casual gamer market because you aren''t one. You are a powergamer who doesn''t have time to keep up with your powergamer friends and it frustrates you. Stop mistaking your gameplay time with your gameplay style. They are completely independent and if you ever decided to stick it out you would eventually catch up to them simply because your friends will start other characters, it''s part of the powergamer mentality. They get the rush from leveling and gaining power, not having it. This is why a number of the largest EQ guilds left to play DAoC, because they could restart the power climb.

quote:
NextOnePlease - dont tell me how to become a pro. Frankly I assume that I am nearly the only one here who has successfully built up a business that involves high quality.


After you climb down off that horse, I''ve got a cross for you so that you can climb up on it and nail yourself to it whenever you''re feeling particularly divine. Assuming that we''re all idiots (when you''re the one who can''t figure out how to program UDP worth a damn and just go with the M$ build-in crap) isn''t going to earn you any bonus points, just irritate us.

Maybe you DO need someone to tell you how to become a pro. You specifically avoid using the BEST things at your disposal and that''s something that a professional does not do. At least not over here in the area that I''m in. We spend the time and figure out how to use the best tools at our disposal, or we go out of business. Apparently Germany is a much more forgiving market.

I think I''m going to stop there because when I read most of your (thona) posts they just sound condescending, rude and like you really don''t know what the hell you''re talking about, but are more than happy to jump on other people because you don''t know what you''re talking about.
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quote:
Original post by solinear
Apparently Germany is a much more forgiving market.




LOL
Where did that come from? As if all developers in America are more professional than in Germany In my opinion it was too bad that you didn''t think before you wrote, because until that sentence I thought you had something interesting to say.


My Stuff : [ Whispers in Akarra (online rpg) || L33T WAR (multiplayer game) || The Asteroid Menace (another game) ]

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quote:
Original post by Khaile
LOL
Where did that come from? As if all developers in America are more professional than in Germany In my opinion it was too bad that you didn''t think before you wrote, because until that sentence I thought you had something interesting to say.


I apologize. After reading his many statements, he really started to irritate me. That''s why I stopped where I was. He very obviously does not know what he''s talking about, contradicting what every single game programmer knows intimately (that UDP is necessary), then stating that he''s one of the only people here who has built a business based upon quality. Apparently the rest of the professionals here have built businesses based upon crap.

He states pretty clearly, though not in these terms, that basically he can''t program networking stuff and uses Microsoft''s built in stuff.

He jumps on someone else, saying "don''t you tell me..." as if he couldn''t possibly learn anything. I guess it''s possible, but from his UDP related statements, it''s clearly not very likely that he knows everything. The person that he jumped all over was giving honest and polite advice. The tone of the statement "Frankly I assume that I am nearly the only one here who has successfully built up a business that involves high quality." is pretty damn arrogant, considering most of the people that I interact with here are professional programmers who build complex client/server application suites, hand code their own network layers. Their quality is most definitely what I would call unquestionable. He is either assuming that everyone here is either a hack or 14 years old. I think incompetent is more insulting though and I think that was what was in his mind.
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Ooh, looks like I started a miniature flame war while I was away.

quote:
Original post by solinear
Good thing that you laughed at people wanting to make MMOGs, AC was done by a group of amateurs. DAoC was made in 18 months, including a rewrite of the skills.

As someone else already pointed out, ''newbie'' is not the same as ''amateur''. Amateurs are often equal to or better than professional programmers and have fewer limitations. Of course they can do well. I wasn''t talking about them.

Oh, and Asheron''s Call featured several people who had worked on previous titles, including the producer who is a crucial part of any team.

And I don''t quite see what relevance the ''DAoC was made in 18 months'' comment has. I didn''t make any reference to timescale. Mythic Entertainment has been behind several games before they did DAoC, and were neither newbies or amateurs. Therefore your point does not exist.

quote:
I''m suprised that you are a moderator in the forums for a game development site that is (95%) compromised of amateurs and ''newbies'' (at least to the gaming industry) and you spend most of your time laughing at them. Maybe you should resign your position if all you do is laugh at the ''newbie'' developers, or maybe qualify your statements a little better.

I don''t talk about ''newbie'' with regards to the gaming industry, I talk about ''newbie'' with regards to programming. Why would I base everything around the industry when, as you rightly point out, this is a hobbyist site? Your assumption was flawed which has led to you taking what I said the wrong way. Consider this to be your requested qualification to my statement. Given the distinction between newbie and amateur, I don''t think we are in too much disagreement about much else.

While I''m here, I may as well answer a few other criticisms or counterpoints to what I said.

quote:
Kalvin B wrote
Gang Wars (MMORPG) was written in 10 days from design to release (see site for source code).
...
It took a week to turn Tombstone from single player to MMO having never done an MMO before simply because the code was designed like an MMO even though it was single player.

Although Gang Wars is probably impressive, there is still the problem that a detailed RPG will have a lot more data per player than Gang Wars does. And you have to send enough data to each player so that they can process the local area properly, but not so much that they can easily hack the game. All this is non-trivial if you want to do it properly.

quote:
Khelz wrote
Motivation and perseverance may lead you everywhere.

Don''t listen to those defeatists people around here. When I started my project with some friends, some people laughed at us. Now that''s us who''re laughing at them.

And if you have not the recquired competence to accomplish your dream, the time spent for your project will not be lost, you will gain experience in every cases.

Well done to you. I said in my first post that it was certainly possible, and you have proven that. But, the simple fact is, most people will fail, and it is an almost proven psychological fact that failure reduces your productivity. Remember that failure may only teach you yet another way not to do things, and that if there an infinite number of wrong ways, you''re no closer to the right way. The most certain way of succeeding is to start small and build upon it. That way you still have something to show for your efforts, you have the benefit of experience, but you are without the negative vibes that come from failure.

I''m not interested in stopping people chasing their dream. I am just trying to help by pointing out that the best way is rarely the most direct way.

[ MSVC Fixes | STL | SDL | Game AI | Sockets | C++ Faq Lite | Boost | Asking Questions | Organising code files ]
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Those who know me should have expected me to chime in to beat this dead horse to... well, death! I''ve seen people hammer on nomenclature such as newbie, MMOG etc, so I will use it where applicable.

I started out as a NEWBIE programming a MUD that had about 10-200 simultaneous users throughout it''s lifetime. This was NOT a MMOG. Sorry, it''s a single server process that polls a fairly small amount of connections. There was persistence, but no load balancing, no fault tolerance, no back-end billing systems. And since it used TCP, any user count in excess of ~200 would cause insane INHERENT lag to take over and ruin the playability.
I moved from being a NEWBIE to an AMATEUR here. I learned a lot.

I got a job programming high-availability distributed client/server applications. I moved from Amateur to professional at that job, and we used a combination of TCP and UDP. TCP was only used for local processes to communicate low-load, vital messaging. Everything else was UDP (only some of which was reliable).

Then I got a job in the game industry. Where I work, we use UDP almost exclusively. Some chat is TCP based I believe. There is a known problem with DirectPlay that it needs an entire range of ports to do anything. I''d suggest sticking with UDP. NAT? Hmmm. I''m of the impression that most routers and NATs open the ports for outbound connections. shrug. It seems to work fine so far for hundreds of thousands of users...

Now, can a Newbie make a MMOG? doubtful. if he understands threads and can code up a reliable UDP layer, he''s probably not really a newbie anyways. Can an amateur do it? certainly. But will it compare to EQ, AO, AC, DAoC etc? Nah, probably not. But that''s okay too. The point is to have fun.

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Excuse me, but wasn''t this topic suposed to help people create MMORPGs? I didn''t come here to hear a bunch of damn pessimists discouraging dreamers. Newbies, amautuers, and everyone has a right to make anything, and I think the last thing they need to hear is you people telling them they can''t make a game. There are people, even if they haven''t made a game yet, who have the percistance and diligence to make a good game on their first try. You dont have to walk first to drive a car, just to learn how to walk before you get the car going to fast.

I''ve been expirementing with programming, and its worked okay for me so far. I''m on my way to creating an MMORPG even, but it will definetely take a long time. Me and my friend are working on it together, and where not expecting anything like Everquest, or anything close, to come out of our project. It probally wont even be in 3D. Thats not stopping us from trying, though. And neither will all you damned people. You should spend some time laughing at the fact that you wasted your time insulting people who have a dream and have the courage(and optimism) to try and work it out.

Its kind of sad that people honestly would think that closed-mindedly as all of you who are saying this. Everyone starts out aa a newbie. If there werent those newbies who went against the odds, you wouldn''t be able to play any of your favorite games, because people would be to scared to have started the project. You guys should think more before you make these stupid comments.
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