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juicypuffin

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About juicypuffin

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  1. Thanks guys. Unity and UDK were listed by someone else as tools that would work to build MMORPGs and I had only glanced at the sites a bit before I posted them here, but I'll strike them from the list now.
  2. Continuing from here: http://www.gamedev.n...rs-for-newbies/ Here are the programs which were suggested for newbies to make 3D MMORPGs, and what I found out about their costs/restrictions. If anyone could further elaborate on any of these programs so I can have a complete review on them, that would be great. I'm interested in cost, restrictions/charges after you actually make a game, OS restrictions on the final product, how easy/hard the scripting/languages are to learn, and the restrictions in what the program can actually do plus anything else that might be useful. If anyone knows if more programs that can make 3D MMORPGs, please post them and review them if possible (cost is not an issue, I want a breakdown of all the options out there even if they cost millions). [size="4"]I'm not looking for opinions on whether or not I should make a MMORPG, on if I should make other games first, or anything else unrelated. HeroEngine: Their end-result games are only compatible on Windows but Macintosh and iOS support should be out later this year. If your team is twenty-five people or smaller, they keep 30% of revenue (if you make your game free, they don't charge you anything either) from the game but give you their software and control your servers for "free". If you have a larger team, you don't have to pay revenue and you can use your own servers but a license cost could possibly run up to hundreds of thousands of dollars, according to some comments on this forum (it would be great if anyone knew actual costs other than speculation). You have to use your own graphics and everything, but they have some basics you can use for reference. In terms of how easy it is to make things and have them work in the game, this seems to be the best program in the list. Realmcrafter Professional: Apparently the non-professional one is useless and the professional one is still in beta testing. $165 currently but normally costs $300. No info on restrictions found yet, they haven't answered my Email yet either. Neither UDK or Unity comes with anything that even resembles a MMO backend and in the case of UDK it appears to be almost impossible to even use it for the client (You don't have enough control over the networking to replace the server side of the engine). With unity you can make a MMO client but the hard part (the server) is completely missing. Big World: "Big World Indie": Runs on Windows. Can help you with servers if you want them to. For a team of twenty-five people or less, $299 per year. They take 10% gross royalty on revenue. You can only have a max of 10,000 subscribers/accounts. Source code uses Python. "Big World Indie Source": Team of twenty-five or less. $2,999 annually. Max 10,000 subscribers/accounts, 10% gross royalty on any commercial revenue from the game. Source code stuff in Python and C++. "Big World Commercial": $200,000+. Access to Python and C++ source code.
  3. juicypuffin

    3D MMORPG makers for newbies?

    Then please actually stop acting like you're the ruler of this thread, we have all the best interests in mind for the OP even if you think our answers are 'strange' And as far as I know this thread never went off-topic, just because we're saying things you or the OP don't like to hear doesn't mean that it's off-topic [/quote] Some replies in here definitely were off-topic, even if I managed to keep the actual thread intact. Does anyone know the royalty restrictions, licensing, OS restrictions, et cetera for the programs I haven't already found out about?:
  4. juicypuffin

    3D MMORPG makers for newbies?

    So that confirms my statement. Game Boy and Game Boy Color were consoles released in the late 1990s. Their hardware was severely limited. In fact, the Game Boy Color is nowadays outperformed by me dear-to-heart TI-84 on which I have began my programming adventure and which features the z80 assembly and TI-BASIC as two official languages of choice for the programmer. In order to get a game running smoothly on that kind of limited console, you really had to savor all your resources and be mindful of what you're doing, therefore, assembly was required. The memory was measure in kilobytes, and my 2D platformer written in Java starts off at ~60 Mbs of allocated memory. I wish to say there was an easy way to say which language is best for you. There really is no concrete answer to it. I can say that language X is very good for you. Then some other guy will come in and say that language Y is better because it lets you do things such and such way. The reality is, both languages will probably get you where you want to be, and the difference between them is vastly negligent, particularly if scripting languages are concerned (I guess it really comes down to the parser in the engine more so than the language itself). [/quote] Thanks. Assembly is a very broad term, each processor architecture has its own assembly language, and you should look at it as one step above native machine code; therefore assembly is only an actual option if you're going to do development for a single platform, and if you really have a good reason for writing in assembly (eg. if there's no higher level environment available, or if you have the illusion that you can beat a compiler in assembly optimization) A global language review is close to impossible since there are so many varying languages and paradigms, all with their own pro's and cons You'll need general programming experience and an understanding of global concepts, it gets much easier then to make decisions on engines and programming languages, and you will be able to make all of these comparisons yourself [/quote] I'm not saying I'm going to write anything in Assembly and I'm not saying that I want someone to review all the languages/scripting under the sun. I'm asking for reviews because I haven't tested everything myself, I don't need experience to read other people's opinions. Reviews of the languages/scripting used in the MMORPG makers listed (or others which you think are better suited to my needs) is what I want. If no one has anything like that and no one is willing to peek at them to make their own opinions, then my thread here should be finished: HeroEngine Realmcrafter Big World UDK Unity
  5. juicypuffin

    3D MMORPG makers for newbies?

    No, it is (as interpreted by me): "How can I make a 3D MMO (yes, massive is a requirement) RPG with basic graphics, despite the fact I know nothing about programming?" The answer to this question is: "You can't."; assuming of course the OP doesn't have a few million dollars of disposable income. Even with tools, the architecture alone requires a lot of expertise to get right, a pile of code to glue together parts and define the world's behavior. As much as he or you might dislike the answer doesn't change it, or the relevance of that answer. The best, quickest way to make a 3D MMORPG with basic graphics when you know nothing about programming and don't have a few million dollars is to start with learning to program very basic things. This necessarily involves making them unrelated to the end goal of making a 3D MMORPG with basic graphics. [/quote] I did say to ignore costs. If it's an option that requires millions of dollars, I'm still all ears. Or is your answer to that "spend your millions employing a professional team to make a game and/or game maker for you", because that isn't what I'm looking for, as you can tell by my original post. Game Boy and possibly Game Boy Colour games require Assembly, and the tools for making them are generally so limited that you're forced to use Assembly anyway even if the tool is written in something else. Of course this is an example to illustrate possible difficulty levels, I'm sure there are no 3D MMORPG makers which require you use Assembly. I'd welcome it if you were to review the languages and see if any of them are notably different, seeing as you appear to have some knowledge about this.
  6. juicypuffin

    3D MMORPG makers for newbies?

    If you're going to use something like Hero Engine or Big World then just go for it, with those tools the technical challenges are solved for you (Its still an insane amount of work but everything you do will get you closer to your goal) If you're going to make something from scratch then the recommendation to start smaller applies, any code you write as a beginner will be of poor quality and difficult to maintain and expand upon , thus pretty much any code you write for your mmorpg while you're still a beginner will be worthless and has to be thrown out and replaced. (This means that you won't really make any progress at all until you've learned the things you need to know and therefore learning those things quickly should be the highest priority (smaller projects teach you the basic concepts alot faster than large projects do and you'll have something to show for your efforts faster aswell) [/quote] Thanks. Yes, this is why I'm looking to use tools. Yes, but which program that is otherwise helpful to me requires that you use C++? I don't need "a lot of engines", I need "these are more geared towards what you want and they are coded in this". It seems to me that a lot of game making programs geared towards newbies have their own language, and while I have a general idea of which major languages are harder or easier (similarly, that's easy to look up if I don't know), I have no idea about the ones that have been made up specifically for these programs. [/quote] Engines generally have scripting languages that come with them, so you'll have to get oriented in what they are. All languages are vastly the same when they share a common paradigm. I don't think any of the engines you plan to use strain too far outside of imperial or otherwise OOP programming so they will all be right about the same. In that case, it doesn't matter which scripting language you pick, just flip a coin and go with it. [/quote] Thanks, this is why I was wondering which might be easiest, because I don't know the differences between them. As I said before, something like Eclipse's language ( http://www.touchofdeathforums.com/eclipse/ ) seems extremely easy, as first-timers have made scripts in as little as three hours. Something like Assembly seems impossible for me, as people need half a year to get the basics. All these programs seem to have their own language and as I haven't tried all of them, nor have I see anyone comparing the languages between them, I don't know anything about them. If anyone who's tried multiple programs for what I'm looking for could tell me which language/program they personally found easier and most flexible, that would helpful.
  7. juicypuffin

    3D MMORPG makers for newbies?

    Yes, but which program that is otherwise helpful to me requires that you use C++? I don't need "a lot of engines", I need "these are more geared towards what you want and they are coded in this". It seems to me that a lot of game making programs geared towards newbies have their own language, and while I have a general idea of which major languages are harder or easier (similarly, that's easy to look up if I don't know), I have no idea about the ones that have been made up specifically for these programs.
  8. juicypuffin

    3D MMORPG makers for newbies?

    This is essentially the same question, since you will always be programming large parts of your game, if you're using an engine or not, there is no drag-and-drop and button pushing application which will generate a full blown MMORPG for you, and the tools you are going to be needing will always include a programming environment with a suitable language to get the job done (and you'd better know your way around with these if you want to get anywhere), there is absolutely no way around that fact And as stated before, just rushing into an MMORPG without knowing what the hell you are doing or what you should be doing will not gain you any experience at all, you are absolutely not the first person I've seen with this mindset, nor will you be the last, but nobody I've ever known or I've ever heard of has ever succeeded in their project like this, and you will most likely not be an exception As I said before, nobody can stop you from writing this game, and it's absolutely your decision if you want to throw out all the advice given by experienced hobbyists and professionals alike, it's just very unwise to do so [/quote] Then please come forth with your opinions on which software has the easiest language. Then which one most closely satisfies them? That's what I'm interested in. EDIT: I'm fully aware that if I want any part of my game to be unique, a game-making program wouldn't be able to help me without me making new scripts on my own. Besides, I haven't explained what I even want in my game, which is irrelevant because I'll have to code things in anyway. This is why I'm interested in knowing which programs have the easiest language.
  9. juicypuffin

    3D MMORPG makers for newbies?

    Even if the OP understands the complexity and the magnitude of an MMORPG project completely, he's still asking 'how do I write it?', and this question in itself is so huge and vague that nobody here will be able to give the answer the OP wants to hear; the only thing we can say is that the OP should learn the ropes, and that an MMORPG is not the way to do this (as time has taught so many people over and over and over again) Again, as stated a lot of times in this thread, we are not saying this to discourage anyone, we are not saying this to bash the OP, we are not saying this to look down upon anyone, we are just stating cold hard facts Even if you can buy an engine and a set of tools to ease the workload somewhat, there is absolutely no easy or newbie way to make and manage an MMORPG as stated by so many people here (and with some very good factual evidence to back it up), and it remains a fact that experience and knowledge are required just like in any other field, games are absolutely no exception to this, although it seems that many people do think so; we cannot give a direct answer to 'how do I write an MMORPG without any previous experience?' besides advising the person asking the question to learn the basics and go on from there You should compare this to someone saying he wants to do brain surgery without taking any basic biology to start off with I believe a lot of people think that because playing games can be fun and easy, that developing games will be fun and easy too, and that developing games is not a serious profession and that anyone can do it without any experience; even assuming this can be rather insulting to those who have been doing game development for a longer time, and is hurtful to the entire gaming industry, professional and independent alike [/quote] I'm not asking "how do I write it?", I'm asking "which tool is best/easiest for a newbie?" precisely because writing it would be impossible for me. I've also never said once in here that developing games isn't serious or that it doesn't take experience of any kind. Just because I myself have no experience at the moment, it doesn't mean I'm not going to get experience as I start working on the project. Everyone: Please, if you have any doubts about what question I am asking in this thread, read my first post again or ask me about it.
  10. juicypuffin

    3D MMORPG makers for newbies?

    Guys, stop arguing about if I should get more discouraging advice, if I'm stupid and ignorant, or if all the advice is off-topic, because it's not helping me in the slightest. If anyone's interested, I Emailed HeroEngine and they told me that their end-result games are only compatible on Windows but Macintosh and iOS support should be out later this year (in case anyone else was looking into them). If your team is twenty-five people or smaller, they keep 30% of revenue (if you make your game free, they don't charge you anything either) from the game but give you their software and control your servers for "free". If you have a larger team, you don't have to pay revenue and you can use your own servers but a license cost could possibly run up to hundreds of thousands of dollars, according to some comments on this forum. You have to use your own graphics and everything, but they have some basics there you can use for reference. EDIT: Unity can be run on both Windows and Macintosh, and the end-result games can be played on either platform (unsure about Linux/Ubuntu/etc.) and games can also be make for computers, online, handhelds, or consoles. Haven't yet found if they charge you anything. UDK can make games on/for(?) Windows or iOS. It's free if you're using it for education or making a non-commercial game. If you make a game you're going to make money off of, you have to pay $99 US up-front, and then after your game makes over $50,000 you have to give them 25% royalty on whatever future money you make from it. Realmcrafter hasn't answered my Email yet.
  11. juicypuffin

    3D MMORPG makers for newbies?

    Multiple tools for newbies have been posted here, so there are some. I knew before I even had the idea to make a game that it would take years to do. Frankly I'm disappointed that the "advice" I seem to be getting here is mostly "give up, you'll never be able to do it, only huge companies can do it" when I'm not even asking for opinions on if it's possible or not to make one. I'm not saying I plan to make a MMORPG from scratch, coding everything myself, and that I'll instantly have a huge hit and be able to handle all the server details that would require. I'm saying I want to try making one and am looking for the options available to me at this point. [/quote] Have you considered that such advice is probably the truth? So what you're saying is you want an MMO game without having to worry about the servers? You have to understand, making the client, while not a trivial task in itself, doesn't scale to the difficulty of making a server. I read that article ApochPiQ posted, and by the sound of it, you really need to know your stuff to making one of those. Now, if you're looking to just make a 3D game without actually getting too much detail into program, then that is definitely possible. But MMO? No. Not alone. Not with five people. Not with ten people. You need a lot of skilled programmers to even get things going. It would be the equivalent of trying to write a big portion of Wikipedia in a language that you do not know. Impossible? Nothing is impossible. Probable? About as much as winning the lottery. Either way, it will take you a while. If you want to create a 3D, then the forum can probably aid you in that. Unity and UDK engines are widely suggest for these kinds of games. Believe it or not, we don't all want to sound discouraging, but it will take you a little more than a few years to achieve that kind of goal with such a limited team. We tell you to make smaller games for a little more than just experience. When you complete a project successfully, you start to have better approximations of how long projects will take you to finish, and you'll get a boost of courage for having accomplished something with success. When you work on something for years without end and you end up with obscure bugs and you have no idea why the abstractions are leaking, only frustration awaits you and you'll soon realize you don't actually know how to find the answer to your problems. I make it seem a lot more gloomy than it actually is, personally I love myself a good challenge (despite saying I hate it and that it should be killed immediately with fire), but some things are just too big to handle man. You can have as many tools as you can imagine, but a professional with a hammer and saw will still create a better house, if you manage to create one at all. (I hate myself for being a realist sometimes) [/quote] I don't need to worry about servers at this point in time. I need to worry about how to actually make the game before servers will even become an issue. Completing a game and realizing how much time it takes does mean you're gaining experience in "estimating the time it takes to create things". I don't understand why you don't think that is gaining experience. Not to mention, completing little tasks and figuring out small steps in making a huge game should give you just as much of a courage boost as completing a small game, especially if that's your ultimate goal. Just having the art assets is not enough to make it easy, I still deal mostly in 2d, but I have read a lot on 3d so take my advice with a grain of salt here: First it really depends on what engine you choose, and what tools they offer. Some engines may have a world editor that's as easy and importing a 3d model of your world, others leave getting your 3d world mesh(es) into the engine completely up to you. Secondly, Dealing with animation, camera, 3d math,UI, its all pretty difficult to work with for people with experience, someone just learning its going to be a nightmare. Third, One of the biggest problems I would foresee would be planning, its very hard to completely plan your project without intimate knowledge of the engine and its limitations beforehand so everything works together nicely. I really hope you can find a all inclusive engine/package that has really good content tools as well as a really good scripting language that would probably be exactly what your looking for. I am really not trying to discourage you, in fact I hope you can prove everyone wrong and complete something like this, but speaking from personal experience I went down this road when I first got into hobbyist game development and while I gained some very valuable knowledge and experience with clients and servers I feel that had I worked on some easier to obtain goals I would not only be farther along in my game development, but I think I would have had more fun for me. [/quote] With the amount of 3D programs available, and even the amount of MMORPG creators available (or simple RPG creators), one of them has to be more simple to use than another. In addition, it's not like I haven't learned math or like I couldn't learn new math concepts (as well as new programming) if needed. The reason why I want an easy-to-use program is for the same reason as what everyone has said - it is hard to make this stuff. Even if the easiest program still requires you to have perfect knowledge of physics, it would still be better than what the other programs would need you to know. Sorry, I'm unsure of where I told everyone that I was planning on making a fantastic MMORPG game in two weeks by myself, with no experience, and where I was unwilling to learn new things in order to make it. Maybe it takes me ten years to make a MMORPG. But if I make fifty smaller games before making it, it'll take thirty years. I want to put all my efforts as directly into my project as I can.
  12. juicypuffin

    3D MMORPG makers for newbies?

    Far cry from simple graphics if you have no experience. [/quote] Can you explain your reasoning so I can better understand? If there are multiple programs out there for the purpose of making 3D things, the artist actually knows how to do art, and we're not rushed for time, how is it a far cry?
  13. juicypuffin

    3D MMORPG makers for newbies?

    Multiple tools for newbies have been posted here, so there are some. I knew before I even had the idea to make a game that it would take years to do. Frankly I'm disappointed that the "advice" I seem to be getting here is mostly "give up, you'll never be able to do it, only huge companies can do it" when I'm not even asking for opinions on if it's possible or not to make one. I'm not saying I plan to make a MMORPG from scratch, coding everything myself, and that I'll instantly have a huge hit and be able to handle all the server details that would require. I'm saying I want to try making one and am looking for the options available to me at this point. I'm glad you're able to offer encouragement. I don't think the graphics/art is going to be the biggest problem considering how many different 3D programs are out there. It shouldn't be impossible to get the hang of one of them. Thanks. From my experience something like that isn't actually all that basic, and getting something from scratch or even with a engine is going to take a lot of knowledge and time. [/quote] What are basic graphics, then? Considering the amount of RPG games and even console games that have this level of graphics, I thought it would be considered basic (as there's much better quality available these days). I'm prepared for that it's going to take time and effort either way.
  14. juicypuffin

    3D MMORPG makers for newbies?

    Take it in steps. Make an empty world. Then, add the player. Then, add something to do. Then, add another player. Then, make the second player controlled by another computer. Then, add more stuff to do. Then add more players. Then, add more stuff to do. Concentrate on one thing at a time and slowly work towards your goal. One step at a time. Even the best developers start with a small core, and slowly build out the features they need. If you're new, don't bother trying to design for the end goal up front. You'll never anticipate all the hundreds of little details you need to take into account. Even experienced developers would miss most of them if they tried to point them all out up front. [/quote] Thank you, that's also more relevant to what I'm thinking. If I have to build most of the game on my own (as opposed to using an engine where many of the things I need are already supported and ready to use), that is how I would go about doing it: so I could work on my real project in small steps, rather than making unrelated smaller projects to gain experience, as was suggested before. Thanks, I'll look at it.
  15. juicypuffin

    3D MMORPG makers for newbies?

    MMORPGs are probably the most difficult, the most expensive and the largest games to build and maintain, creating one would take a lot of experience, knowledge and funds, and would be as good as impossible to do on your own If you are serious about wanting to create a game, then start small and simple, learn how to program and learn all the basic concepts, then when you have your years of experience you can try to tackle that MMORPG project [/quote] I'm not working on this on my own, but we're all just as inexperienced. I don't want to make other games before I try to make this one, and I don't want half-heartedly made games lying around just to create experience, I would rather put all my effort into this and gain experience while still (slowly) progressing on my game project. I don't need the "general advice for people who don't understand how much work a game project would take", but thank you anyway. [/quote] If you're looking for shortcuts you don't have that much to choose from Hero Engine is probably the best option out there, its license costs are quite high though unless you go with the HeroCloud service ($0 starting fee but then it costs 30% of your revenue in royalties) (Hero Engine is used for Biowares upcoming Starwars MMO so its definitly capable of delivering). An easier but far more restrictive and less scalable (unless you go with the professional edition that is currently in beta it doesn't scale at all and won't support a massive number of players) would be Realmcrafter. If neither of those is good enough then you're pretty much forced to make your own. (This is hard enough if you go the easy route realmcrafter did and do your scaling through zones and instances, more flexible solutions would require a fairly solid understanding of distributed simulations and is not something i'd recommend you attempt as a beginner) [/quote] Thank you, this is a much more helpful answer. We can ignore license costs at this point, I'm just interested in which would be most suitable for the type of game I want to make. I'll be looking into these.
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