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Mynx last won the day on June 3 2018

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  1. Mynx

    The Battlefield V "Historical Accuracy" Controversy

    This and everything else you said is so on the nose! My thought is always focus on why they feel attacked. The answer seems to typically be ignorance. These people have built a world-view on a falsehood: the idea that equality has been achieved. This is pure ignorance at the foundation of every other string of logic they have. Obviously, it hasn't. #MeToo wouldn't be a thing if it was, BLM wouldn't be a thing if it was. A friend of mine wouldn't have been starved a promotion because she refused to give her boss sexual favors. These guys live in a small bubble where they've never seen or experienced sexism or racism in this way so they just assume it's a relic of the past, ignoring ofc the anti-femininity/toxic masculinity that they don't think is a problem because they've never been bullied for it - see a pattern? I do... It's like our own progress is biting us in the bum. Ye I was talking about Shooters, but I really like Rythm games too. I'm particularly focusing on shooters because rythm games are fairly general. Why do I like them? Because I really like the point&shoot element, the skill challenge of reacting as quickly as possible. I find it super fun to dodge & shoot and I like to challenge myself to get better. "Targeted at men" in this sense is less about the game mechanics or grit or gore (stereotypes, btw) and more about the assumptions the developers make. It's about them assuming their demographic is entirely comprised of men, and making decisions around that assumption. It's about the perspective carried by the story - it's always things connected to the experiences of men, because developers are overwhelmingly men and they assume (self fulfilling prophecy btw) that the audience is too, so you get a lot of things like, for example, the popular "I need to protect my family" narrative that is present in soooo many movies. This kind of thing happens even in games or movies that feature women as protagonists. You've probably heard of it referred to as "the male gaze" but I don't like bringing that up because people lose their minds over it. So when I say I want media aimed at me, I'm not saying I want stereotypical feminine content. I mean I want stories that carry the perspectives of women, that connect to the experience of women. It's all pretty subtle stuff, frankly, but it's nice when it's there. There's nothing wrong with relating to the experience of men, but that's all I really get to relate to when I watch TV, go to the movies or play games. There is content like that, but it's a bit of a rarity. Ofc that all applies to other people, not just women. POC etc all have different life experiences and having stories that carry their perspective is great. Pretty sure Black Panther did that well. I'd love to have games with different themes, but it seems that the industry doesn't believe enough women like me like these games, so they don't invest in the idea. The only option as of right now is to expand the existing market until it becomes viable. Then I think we'll see more of that. That said, I loved the new Doom, and so did my friends. The fact that it caricatures the "tough" narrative was one of my favorite parts about it. I loved being a badass demon killer who breaks everything even when told to be cautious, it was hella fun. I don't think this is particularly gendered considering how thin it was portrayed. I'm more focused on developed characters that interact with each other, acting tough with each other or whatever else.. Again though having a female Doom-Slayer in multiplayer would always be welcome from me, and I'd love to see it just because women can be badass too, but I'm not going to demand it. Developers get to chose if they want to provide that or not, not me. As for story mode, it's fine as it is IMO. Sure, playing a girl in story mode would've been super fun too, but I'm happy with it as it is. I agree with you, new IPs would be fantastic instead of rehashing the same thing over and over. People might be getting too attached to their IPs if throwing a girl into the mix is enough to make them this upset. New IPs don't typically have this problem since they don't have pre-existing attachments and expectations. +1 I agree, I'm also concerned with the idea of "skinning something to appeal to girls" because I guarantee it would end up just being insulting. Women can be powerful, men can be vulnerable. I want to see those depictions, too. We don't see enough variation in media. From a political perspective, having those variations can help normalize different experiences, and that's really why you see so much pushing for diversity. From a personal perspective, having more diverse stories makes for more interesting media and less stale content, and I'm sooo for that. I could go on an on about Japanese content and the problems present there, they're just extensions of the same social issue, honestly. That said there is a lot of content where women are either not present at all or are nothing more than props for the plot, pretty much everywhere. It's pretty tiresome. My only argument in this conversation regarding that is: I don't believe sidelining a character that fits the description of 95% of the other characters for someone else is a big deal, and I question why that matters so much to you. Yes, this. Exactly this. Will get back to that topic later. You're already starting to touch on something I wanted to bring up, and that is the fact that developers are lazily handling diversity or inclusion. And frankly, I'm annoyed with it too because it usually leads to back-tracking on a decision or poorly representing someone, but usually I'll accept that over nothing. Instead of complaining that they're "forcing diversity down our throats" why can't we all complain about them being bad at implementing diversity? And that's because the developers in question don't actually care about the people they're putting in, which results in bad decisions, poor representation and lazy execution, which are all things I'm not happy about either. But we've only seen a trailer for BF so far and there's no way to know if it's actually bad or not. They're jumping way ahead and over-reacting. As for reskins, again it's lazy execution, this kind of thing works best when you've planned for it. A good, inclusive director/writer/what-have-you would have thought about a diverse cast from the start, and that's what we want. People who are outraged by a lack of representation won't be happy with a crappy reskin, either, and you're bound to get controversy for poorly representing someone. That's how you set yourself up for a lose-lose. I've been complaining about developers catering to US issues for years (I'm not American) but they still do it, regardless of where they're from, and it's annoying. That said, human rights issues are not specific to the US and I don't understand your separation between EU and NA "issues". Gay rights are a problem everywhere, and people in those regions still exist and want representation. Hell I'd argue it's almost more important there than in NA. I get the feeling that you think this "isn't an issue outside of the US and therefore doesn't need to be addressed in our games" which is just your ignorance showing. People outside of the states don't have loud voices, but they're still there. You can look at Japan as an example, they're almost silent/invisible but they certainly exist and representation issues are big problem there. See Okama as example. Racism has a different face in many places but it's still a world-wide issue, so the same applies there. I've said it before and I'll say it again, it might not be an issue for you, maybe it's irrelevant, but it's important to someone, and I don't see why your apathy is more important than their representation. So you want to lecture others through their entertainment... yeah, I cannot see why THAT would spark an outrage *sarcasm* God no, I don't want to lecture anyone on anything, that would make for horrible entertainment and ye, would absolutely lead to outrage. I want well written characters. I want entertaining mechanics. In all honesty I'd love more female characters, but men that behave differently than the status quo is also entirely welcome. I just want something different. The only reason I focus on female characters at all in this discussion is because I'm sick of being blamed for "ruining games" just because I exist in the space. You're stretching what I said too far. I don't want to lecture or educate on womens issues, I want to frame the story or events from her perspective. In Tomb Raider there's a sexual assault scene and it completely misses the mark on framing it. My biggest gripe, honestly, is all in how characters interact. Guys in games always seem to interact the same way, and it gets a little tiring. I don't mind it, but it's stale. Anytime a girl comes in it's flirty or sexy, which is equally tiresome. I'd love a depiction of characters that are just close friends looking out for each other during their war-story, no sexy or whatever. It happens and when it does I love it, but it's a bit of a rarity (getting better these days). More important: Considerate diversity -> good. Lazy diversity -> bad. I mean, at the end of the day, focusing on writing good stories and characters is already a huge step towards making everything feel natural and not "forced". If you think it's forced, it's probably just badly done. Anytime you cause controversy with "progressives" it's because it was done poorly. If you research a demographic you don't personally know in order to write a well formed character, then you're on the right track. All of that said, none of this has any bearing on multiplayer! I still don't understand why anyone would complain about character selection in a multiplayer setting. It's literally complaining about having choice and options. How is that bad? I don't think we're in disagreement per-say, I think we're just having a hard time communicating (not surprising for me) because we're coming at it from different angles. I apologize if you feel any hostility in anything I've posted here, there isn't anything intentional but I have this conversation so often with people who are irrationally upset and take it out on me because a small change (i.e. a girl was introduced) was made to "their" game... I'm just burnt from it.
  2. Mynx

    The Battlefield V "Historical Accuracy" Controversy

    I think you're taking that way too literally.
  3. Mynx

    The Battlefield V "Historical Accuracy" Controversy

    Ok, I'll bite. First, being wrong doesn't make anyone worse than someone else, it means they have something new to learn. Turning it into a personal insult is half of the reason people get toxic in the first place. Second, I don't see a problem in wanting a boys space in itself, but your space literally takes up the entire playground. Any space I go to, like movies, games, comics, etc, are all male dominated. You're the only one who has a space, and you won't share it without kicking and screaming. You don't seem to realize that almost everything out there is tailored to you, it's all made for you. There isn't much of a space for me, and developers are finally opening up a little bit and sharing that space so girls like me can get in on the fun, but the boys are throwing up a fuss about it. Don't you think that's a bit selfish? Standard? Nobody I know or have ever talked to has complained about Battlefield 1 catering to SJWs, a term that didn't even reach mainstream until a decade after the game was released. You are the very first person I've seen complain about this.
  4. Mynx

    The Battlefield V "Historical Accuracy" Controversy

    Your sad attempt at othering gamers that disagree with you as "not normal" is tiresome.
  5. Mynx

    The Battlefield V "Historical Accuracy" Controversy

    Let me preface this by saying I'm not a big fan of forced diversity either. Forced diversity usually leads to poorly written characters and poor representation, and a lot of stereotyping. And for some minority groups that poor representation is so much worse than no representation. Alright, let's get into this. I came in here to defend my desire for more women in games and to defend my non-white friends. Nothing more. If you're expecting another "outrage warrior" you're not going to find one. I agree wholeheartedly. The problem I have, as a woman, is that most games of my favorite genre are only targeted at men. And this drives me nuts because to developers, I don't exist. My sales don't count, my opinion doesn't matter. Imagine if your favorite genre of games was only filled with pink girly themes, fashion and makeup, and other stereo typically (and even possibly harmful) "femininity" that you have no experience in? How far do you think you can relate to characters in that setting? You can't tell me you wouldn't want a few more games featuring more typically "male" themes. I'm not saying lets make all shooters super girly (though one would be pretty freaking awesome). I just want to see characters who aren't oozing with masculinity and who have motivations outside of some sense of pride that I can't relate to, which is excruciatingly common. Ok, not the best choice of words, I'll admit. What I meant there was the same as above, though. I've said it before but I have no problem relating to male characters, I care about their motivations, I care that they "get the girl", etc. But men are different than me. They interact with each other differently, they have different experiences, problems, viewpoints and priorities. People of different races, genders and nationalities all have different perspectives and react to situations in different ways, they see the world differently. You yourself confirm that repeatedly by stating you're from Europe and how race issues are very different for you. When all games and movies are filled to the brim with white male protagonists, I only ever get to experience one particular narrow viewpoint of the world, and it gets stale. Very stale. But that's not the real issue. The real issue is: what about the rest of us? Why are men so important that they get to have all of the spotlight and representation? Why are they prioritized? Why is there so much backlash when a woman plays the lead in a new Star Wars movie instead of a man? Why can't she be there? Is she not deserving of it? And that's where it comes full circle and lands in sexism/racism town. In isolation having white characters is absolutely fine, having entire casts of white people would be fine. But in the larger social context, especially in NA, this kind of thing reinforces a long-standing idea that white men are more important. If you look at American history 50+ years ago you can easily see that idea being pushed hard everywhere, from advertisements to laws, even propaganda. In the end though, it's just nice to have characters that are more like me so that others can relate to me for once. One side that you keep referring to, which you frequently over estimate, is a bunch of angry teenagers and young adults who are not happy with how unfair the world is and are trying, albeit poorly in many cases, to improve that and to help others. Or, you know, complain about it on Tumblr or Twitter because they aren't equipped to be good advocates. They're naive and inexperienced but ultimately harmless, and will eventually grow out of it. The rest are people who form small communities or support organizations to try and help people who are discriminated against. The other side is a bunch of rich white men and political figureheads who control a huge portion of government and power, who actively try to control the bodies of women and restrict their rights to their own bodies. Who push for "religious freedom" at the expense of LGBTQ+ people, whom they'd love to send into conversion camps that teach them self-hate and push them towards suicide in the name of "god". Who gerrymander regions to restrict the voting ability of racial minorities and who started a "War on Drugs" solely for the purpose of criminalizing those same minorities. Who mass deport people based on racial profiling and frequently deport actual citizens as a result, and even hold people in ICE custody until they die, all the while trying to make themselves richer at the same time. Do not assume that these are equal forces. Typically "progressives" complain when the representation is bad or harmful, which is usually when it reinforces existing stereotypes or negative opinions of particular groups of marginalized people. Which Horizon did, albeit personally I thought what they did was pretty minor, but here was controversy around it. It's somewhat telling that you'd think white people should be at the back, do you really think white people are being marginalized somehow? Being fair to others is not progressive propaganda, it's asking for basic human decency. What do you want, let all the angry boys who don't like girls in their safe space sit around and echo each other until they become Incels? Oh wait, why is it ok for those guys to have their echo chamber but not the left? How is it fair that we need to step out and listen and be considerate but they get to exclude everyone and have their own little space to be exclusionary? And for the others it's a feature. Are you saying you'll prioritize the people who thinks it's unnecessary? Because again if you favor the later then you're indirectly telling me that women and non-white people are not as important, that our desire for a feature is less important than your apathy. If it's unnecessary to you than why does it matter to you if we have extra options? This sounds like tone policing to me. How dare they speak up! The heathens! We agree, I don't condone any toxic behavior even if the cause is good. It's not a good way to approach situations. That said there's a difference between loud protests or standing up for yourself, and toxicity. I hope you can tell the difference between the two and aren't painting with a single brush. Great! I don't see the issue then, why exactly are you arguing here? Because the story might have a character that doesn't fit the history? That's a terrible analogy. For one, every Battlefield game has never been identical to its predecessor. Your claim is demonstrably false. Each game has been different and brought tons of changes. Secondly, how is the change of adding multiplayer skins so drastic that you are going from a burger to a salad? How is this such a drastic change? How has your gaming experience changed so drastically as opposed to the many major gameplay changes made over the years? Moreover, where are devs moralizing about it? In your 'analogy' the guy is saying "yo you're too fat, eat a salad, it's good for you", show me where the devs are acting that way? How is the mere act of adding a multiplayer skin customization option moralizing? Do these skins have political slogans on them that I missed? @Hodgman sounds pretty spot on in that it sounds more like y'all are pushing an agenda onto something that has no agenda. Moreover, asking for a burger, a predefined item on a menu, is radically different from the game industry. You don't really 'ask' for a game. Devs make a game, they put it on the market, and you choose to buy or not. If enough people like it, then devs make money. It's an entirely different dynamic. The analogy would have worked better as a burger that came with optional extra toppings, since the original burger is left unchanged unless you want those extra toppings. Basically they're complaining because other people get to have extra toppings if they want to. It's selfishness. It's people being upset that there are girls in their boys only club.
  6. Mynx

    The Battlefield V "Historical Accuracy" Controversy

    I had no idea they did this. Does it happen often? Do we need to find them some help?
  7. Mynx

    The Battlefield V "Historical Accuracy" Controversy

    This tells me all I need to know about you, your viewpoint and your position in this thread. You have no interest in discussion or in engaging in proper conversation about the topic, you're here to complain that you feel targeted by some propaganda machine that you think is forcing "other kinds of people" down your throat. News flash, they're not doing this for you, they're doing this for us. If you're not going to play it because they decided to include some choices for me when I have few of them to start with, then by all means, don't play the game. I certainly won't miss you. No, it's not. Putting characters where they don't belong might be jarring to someone who's looking for accuracy (of which you will find very little in movies or games, even when you think it's accurate - see depictions of the 20s as example), but it's not the same thing. People of other ethnicities have been silenced and stereotyped for decades (i.e. the token character, which many people hate due to the stereotypes they bring with them). When 95+% of the people in movies or games are white, and you take out a black character, it's a huge freaking deal because there were almost none there to begin with. Not so much when you replace 1 white character in 100. To put it differently: it's way more noticeable to a bald guy when he loses a hair than it is for someone with a head full of the stuff, you feelin' me? Feels like you didn't even bother reading the jelly bean analogy, to be honest. First, I don't know what message you think I'm discrediting. Inclusivity? Second, Black Panther featured an almost entirely black cast, and look at how well it did. Sure it was a good movie but I'd wager a part of that success can be attributed to the very large number of black Americans who went to see it solely because of that fact. If you think it's losing money then you're either daft or selfish and can't stand the spotlight being on someone different than yourself in the content you enjoy.
  8. Mynx

    The Battlefield V "Historical Accuracy" Controversy

    "If X would stop doing Y, then maybe Z would stop spewing hate." Because, you know, blaming the people who are being hated is exactly the right thing to do./s Your entire argument hinges on the idea that none of this matters and that "both sides" are "outrage warriors" or that devs are virtue signaling or [whatever other buzzword or cliche "I'm in the middle" statement you want to use here]. Don't get me wrong, I can see how someone would see it that way when they're entirely disconnected from any of the issues and see nothing wrong with the existing status quo, but that's privilege blindness at work. For the rest of us this matters. I mean, asking to have characters we like or represent us or that we can associate with in games is an entirely reasonable thing to ask for, don't you think? And being met with extreme opposition and complaints is not a fair response to that request, I would say. Of course, everything I've said so far ignores the most important element of the entire discussion, character customization is hella fun for a lot of people and a mechanic that sells rather well. And, naturally, by having character customization it only makes sense to be able to truly customize your characters gender or skin color or what-have-you. Restricting customization to some random set of white men is just... frankly lazy and ignores a huge part of the potential gaming audience. TLDR; it's about money.
  9. Mynx

    The Battlefield V "Historical Accuracy" Controversy

    Because there are plenty of people out there who want to see a representation of themselves. It's a pretty big attracting factor for anyone who isn't a white guy. See, you get this all the time, every day, in nearly all of your media, where the majority of protagonists are white men, with the occasional exception which, often times, comes with crap like this, which takes what could have been a nice representation and still tries to angle it for men's consumption. It's exhausting. Playing that role all of the time as someone who isn't part of that group makes you feel a little excluded, and it's a deterrent for players (I can't get any of my friends to play shooters with me, partly because of the general aura these games give off). When you add more diverse characters, you win over these players. It's pretty simple and it's one of the reasons the only shooter I can get friends to play is Overwatch. You're ignoring all of the social context and looking at the issue in a vacuum. While I'd agree with you on an even playing field, reality is different and more complex. The double standard that you're complaining about is really a false equivalence due to the environment that we live in. Replacing non-white characters with white characters for example, which is considered "white washing", is only really a problem because there's a history of systematic oppression at play that greatly increases the weight behind the action. Replacing a white character with someone else doesn't carry that same weight, so it's not as big of a deal, so people generally look past it. Look at it this way: imagine you and a friend both have an empty bowl. Someone then fills your friends bowl more than half way with jelly beans, and fills yours with almost none. Now imagine that same someone stops and thinks, "wait, one of you doesn't have even close to enough jelly beans" and proceeds to take a few from your friend and put them in yours instead. Great! Now you have more jelly beans... except wait, now your friend is freaking the hell out because they lost a couple of jelly beans. That's more or less what's happening with this double standard - people complaining because a few of their jelly beans were taken and ignoring the fact that the other person has very few jelly beans of their own. So why not have a little bit of sympathy for your friend and let them have a few jelly beans?
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