I would like to make a comment on this post. Basically these 6 people mean nothing in terms on how software pirating is really done on the internet.. I''m talking about warez groups. Not that crap ones in irc channels or bots but the release groups that hint down stuff from EB or internal suppliers. If you want to stop pirating, it all starts there. That''s where company revenues are lost since it gets spread like wild fire in a matter of minutes to the fastest and hugest sites in the world. I was a member a long time ago in these groups as a cracker for CLASS. As a game developer, I regret it greatly but I look at it this way. 1. It tought me how to protect games. 2. I got lots of experience in coding and debugging.. especially assembler programming. Either way, this is where they must attack... but I forgot. There is alot of advocation too. Some companies like it. It provides huge advertising hits for them and most of the 10 yr olds couldn''t afford it anyway. I don''t advocate this excuse, but its the truth in most respects. Other use this to make CD''s to sell them.. Usually all the group memebers do this for personnal business. Every group memeber gets leech access on all the affiliated sites and possible t3 shell boxes. Lots of employees would give away the software before the publisher even had a chance to package it. it would be the final version and be set to go, released to the public. Even betas would provide intelligent ways to crack the final release. They used to have provide channels on efnet protected by a few group bots and they were left alone. I rememeber group leaders for release used to get together and discuss and I''m sure some people from game companies or the government were in on it too... that''s why you have scene rules and regulations. I''m sure the warez community needs to be controlled like any business, but rules govern how they are spread. The best way to take them down is become a member and shut down as much stuff as you can. That takes alot of effort. Usually when a site goes down, its because 2 group memebers were in an arguement. It was a huge politicial world and that''s why I got out.. not to mention the time involved. these crackers were at the top of their league.. beowulf, grudge, dumdi (or the infamous idmud) back in the day when I was doing it. I don''t see the concern with 6 people when this is still going on... I''m sure everything has doubled in speed and companies like AT&T are hosting sites for them at ludricous speeds. Its just so insane. Personnaly I wish it would stop... but it never will. Even dvd''s are cracked so nothing can really stop cracking. There is always someone smarter. Oh well.. I can''t even remember my point of this.. go figure.. I guess you have to try and derive it Later and thanks for listening email = egervari@mnsi.net