I mentioned this before. Elves are part of the problem. Goblins, robots and spaceships contribute as well. I started a thread a while back in the Visual Arts Forum in an attempt to get people to do art that was about more mundane things, specifically not goblins, spaceships, or other such things. I provided links to a lot of Western art and cowboy art as an example of other things to create art of. That''s an interest of mine, so it stands to reason that I would have more information about that subject, so I posted information on that subject. What I got as feedback and responses in that thread were pictures of anime (soemthing I also specifically requested not be in the thread), pictures of goblin like creatures, robots, arguments about anime as if it was a dominating force driving the art market (it''s not - it''s not even present in the art market pretty much), funny pathetic arguments in an attempt to subvert the thread from its purpose, etc. What I wanted to see was art of automobiles, street scenes, people, landscapes, cowboys, period pieces, whatever. Most individuals in that thread couldn''t even relate to that subject matter. And, considering people in that forum are conceivably very interested in becoming effective at producing art, they fell short of my challenge. I argued that when one draws a goblin or a robot, there work does not have a metric for it to be compared against to the same tune that more conventional subject matter does. When one draws a picture of a goblin, the finer nuances of facial proportions are lost, even facial expression, tone, etc. In other words, the artist can get it wrong, and the viewer doesn''t know the artist got it wrong, because what the Hell is a goblin supposed to look like anyway? Draw a portrait of a cowboy instead, Suddenly you''re challenged. You need to get the clothing right, the facial proportions right, the actions right, the finer nuances of his trade right, everything. All of a sudden, you need to be a good artist, a knowledgable artist, a well researched artist, an artist who watches the finer nuances and subtleties of life, a better artist. Which brings me to my point. All of this analogizes to game design, and the chosen subject matter we find in games. I have mentioned in a few recent threads how research and development should or could be carried out, but it''s unlikely to happen, because the dominant subject matter continues to be one in which no research is necessary. There''s a lot of people out there in the World who aren''t particularly fascinated by elves and goblins or other such creatures. But game developers sure are. And as long as that remains the case, so will the audience be limited to such. But, alas, how many game developers are qualified to pursue different subject matter? Granted, there have been numerous historical games, but they mostly seem to be tactical simulations, where the focus of research was essentially weapons - altogether not quite as impressive when one looks at it.

quote:Original post by bishop_pass
I mentioned this before. Elves are part of the problem. Goblins, robots and spaceships contribute as well.

While an over-reliance on the ''traditional'' fantasy characters such as elves and goblins is pretty uninspiring, I think its somewhat unfair to lump in robots in the same group.

Robots are often used as an artistic device - primarily because a game can use them as their main adversories and have them being mauled, beaten and dismembered without having an 18 sticker slapped on them.

Case in point: Viewtiful Joe. Wonderful dramatic style, very unique and playable game that just happens to feature hoards of robots to fight though.

But other than that slight nitpick, I mainly agree. It doesn''t help that interesting and inovative titles that don''t use the stereotypical characters tend to get overlooked by the mass market. People tend to be inspired by what they''re exposed to, and theres altogether too much of the same styles and cliches in mainstream game art.

When I read fiction books I''m a fan of stories, when I play games I''m a fan of gameplay. I don''t care what forms they take so long as they do it well. I''d play a game about spaceship herding cowboys versus goblins on robots if it was fun to play.

Artists of every medium are guilty of sticking to the well-established in order to appeal to the mainstream fanbase, but I don''t think it is fair to dismiss an entire genre just because it has become over-saturated. Thats the fault of the artists, NOT the genre. I''d like to see a Western game, as I commented in another recent Western themed thread, or indeed any original concepts, but then I''d play any game that was fresh and fun, regardless of genre.

I think that the main problem is the lack of innovation in the genres you mentioned. Only very rarely does anything try to break from the mould.

Thinking about Western art reminded me of a strip from 2000AD I used to read years ago, I think it was called Preacher. Can''t remember much about it now though.

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I will agree that it does take alot more skill to take something real and draw it looking real, but I don''t really agree that having most games deal with aliens and goblins is a real problem.

I beleive that most games are about golbins and aliens because it leaves it up to the designer to work out how things will work, they can put their own "Artistic" spin on the situation.

If someone was going to make a western game, lets say its an RPG, then like you said they would have to make the game realistic, so then they are researching how things really where and they are making the horses act like real horses and they are making the guns work like real guns etc.

For 1 the game would probably take longer to get right, cause you''d want it to look right and react right.. and secondly it might not be as interesting when its done because you don''t really need to learn about made up things you kinda know most of it already..

I would agree that there would probably be a market for games that followed history, and where more of a reality based game, but I guess you need to have a Developer that is interested enough in that subject matter to try and test the waters of an game of that style.

1 small arguement against your case could be if its really a bad thing that game are mostly about Elves, Goblins and Robots then why are there so many people making a living by creating and selling those games?

I''m not trying to be all negative, I think it would be interesting to see a western game (or lets say more realistic just so its not only western) that wasn''t all just about weapons and killing things.. I personally like Adventure/Puzzle games like Zelda but I guess if Zelda was a cowboy it wouldn''t make a difference to me..

quote:Original post by bishop_pass
When one draws a picture of a goblin, the finer nuances of facial proportions are lost, even facial expression, tone, etc. In other words, the artist can get it wrong, and the viewer doesn''t know the artist got it wrong, because what the Hell is a goblin supposed to look like anyway?

You could just as well say that the viewer doesn''t know if the artist "got it wrong" with a cowboy, since the viewer is unlikely to be personally acquainted with that particular cowboy and therefore doesn''t know what he is meant to look like. I mean, how can an artist "get wrong" something that is entirely his/her creation? In fact, I would argue that it takes a very good understanding of the elements of facial expression, etc, in order to create an expressive image of something that has never existed (and such images can be very expressive, otherwise movies like Monsters, Inc. just wouldn''t work).

This reminds me of the sort of debate that used to occur over the merits of photo-realism in computer graphics. I remember a quote from an artist from the non-photo-realistic side of the argument that went something like: "If you want photo-realistic images of real-world scenes, buy a camera and leave our fantasies alone".

As regards game design, there are in fact a number of unusual game genres that never see the light of day in western countries, but are hugely popular in Japan. They tend to focus on social interaction, and other subjects that aren''t touched by western developers. Have a look at this Gamespy article for a little about them.