I pretty much agree with every point. Personally, I can't think of any others, really. Escapism is one of the main things I know I seek. Further, I desire strong emotions in a story, and I do expect it to have at *least* a little humor (though I quite enjoy comedies), as well as a good bit of action that relates to those emotions.
I also like detail - not necessarily total understanding - but hey, if you're shooting a plasma gun, I want to know sort of how it's supposed to work. And, I really prefer (in the case of book series/movie series/tv episodes) a stronger by-case storyline... that is to say, for instance, I prefer each episode of a TV to have a strong storyline even if the overall series storyline is less interesting. To a point, at least.
Also... perhaps not the *best* place to ask, but speaking of anime and stories, sunandshadow , do you have any particular favorites as far as storylines go?
I would say Cowboy Bebop is a good anime, but then I realize the storyline is rather fragmentary at times. Mostly stand-alone episodes.
Big O is another I somewhat like, but the storyline is just.. bizarre. What the hell, is everything a holodeck creation?
Now, one anime I enjoyed watching recently seemed to have a well-built storyline; Witch Hunter Robin. Rather dark anime, but quite well done, in my opinion. The main character seems to mature greatly, as well as affect the other characters around her quite a bit.
For something less serious and more comical, what about Ranma 1/2? Again, mostly stand-alone episodes, but the brilliance of it is the comedy being mixed so strongly with action and drama. It's everything and nothing, I suppose. Overall storyline is pretty weak, in my opinion, but individual episodes have superb storylines (well.. more often than not, nobody's perfect).
...basically Ranma 1/2 is everything I want in a story, except the lack of a stronger main storyline.
There IS a novel series out that I have enjoyed immensely, but I cannot for the life of me remember the name offhand (it's been some time since I read them).
-Greven
[edited by - Evil_Greven on June 8, 2004 3:46:04 AM]
a story is when somebody wants something and...
in defense of foozles, imagine if you will a story that didn''t have one..
foozles are necessary, if but for giving the player an objective to work for, or something to measure his progress by. it has already been well noted that foozles can be abused, by making them the focus of the game. i agree. but at the same time, i think we are not going in the right direction with them either..
making up an example foozle story here..
the evil king has sealed the 8 golden pearls, and the world will end if they are not all recovered by monday.
ok then. in such game, i would gladly fight the odd dragon or wizard or what have you to recover them. after all, i want to save my world, gosh darn it! but, individually, i might not see a reward for recovering said foozles. the player''s gameplay is not enhanced by collecting them.
this is whre the problem lies, gentlemen. when foozles are just foozles. fortunately, this is a very easy thing to fix, depending in how much the game creator cares about it.
in the case of magic golden pearls, just carrying them around doesn''t do me any good. can''t eat them, can''t throw them at enemies.. can''t sell them... somehow, the said foozles must affect the gameplay, to a marginal degree. what if each pearl endowed the owner with magical powers? there''s a start, me thinks. i dunno, that should do good enough for most games, but not doing anything is just a bad idea.
ok then, that said ihave to go to work...
happy story writing!
~Chokki
foozles are necessary, if but for giving the player an objective to work for, or something to measure his progress by. it has already been well noted that foozles can be abused, by making them the focus of the game. i agree. but at the same time, i think we are not going in the right direction with them either..
making up an example foozle story here..
the evil king has sealed the 8 golden pearls, and the world will end if they are not all recovered by monday.
ok then. in such game, i would gladly fight the odd dragon or wizard or what have you to recover them. after all, i want to save my world, gosh darn it! but, individually, i might not see a reward for recovering said foozles. the player''s gameplay is not enhanced by collecting them.
this is whre the problem lies, gentlemen. when foozles are just foozles. fortunately, this is a very easy thing to fix, depending in how much the game creator cares about it.
in the case of magic golden pearls, just carrying them around doesn''t do me any good. can''t eat them, can''t throw them at enemies.. can''t sell them... somehow, the said foozles must affect the gameplay, to a marginal degree. what if each pearl endowed the owner with magical powers? there''s a start, me thinks. i dunno, that should do good enough for most games, but not doing anything is just a bad idea.
ok then, that said ihave to go to work...
happy story writing!
~Chokki
Actually, you don''t really need a final objective, if you think about it. Just having character interaction is enough for a LOT of people!
Notice how many people cling to MMORPGs, in spite of their virtually nil objective? I''d argue that the lack of an objective keeps more people there than it drives away(it drives me away -- I don''t want to level up perpetually!!), so as a writer, finding a way to create a world completely devoid of race/class superiority(you hippie!!), yet somehow allowing those who want to have something as their final goal(you cosmopolitans!), would be the ultimate.
Personally, the best thing for me is the idea of the "personal sacrifice creates a players need to play in a certain way". Imagine if some people imageined an evil pirate or warlord sacrificing themselves to save him. I think those people would keep those folks in their mind. Imagine on the other hand, a hero saving you from said pirate/warlord...makes factions easier to draw up for those who like RPing, and gives less incentive to be purely humanist/good for those who don''t like RPing.
Notice how many people cling to MMORPGs, in spite of their virtually nil objective? I''d argue that the lack of an objective keeps more people there than it drives away(it drives me away -- I don''t want to level up perpetually!!), so as a writer, finding a way to create a world completely devoid of race/class superiority(you hippie!!), yet somehow allowing those who want to have something as their final goal(you cosmopolitans!), would be the ultimate.
Personally, the best thing for me is the idea of the "personal sacrifice creates a players need to play in a certain way". Imagine if some people imageined an evil pirate or warlord sacrificing themselves to save him. I think those people would keep those folks in their mind. Imagine on the other hand, a hero saving you from said pirate/warlord...makes factions easier to draw up for those who like RPing, and gives less incentive to be purely humanist/good for those who don''t like RPing.
Author
quote:Original post by Evil_Greven
Also... perhaps not the *best* place to ask, but speaking of anime and stories, sunandshadow , do you have any particular favorites as far as storylines go?
He all, sorry I haven''t been keeping up with this thread but I just moved, had delays getting my internet connection working, and am now taking 4.5 hours of class with 3-4 hours of homework a day in an attempt to graduate at the end of the summer, so a lot of my free time has disappeared.
Anyway, animes with good plots, hmm... Plot is not one of the elements of witing I''m particularly interested in so I don''t pay too much attention to whether things have tight, unified, suspenseful plots. Off the top of my head I My Me Strawberry Eggs has the strongest plot I can think of, probably because it was complete in 13 episodes so there was a lot of main story line and little episodicity or filler. Crest of the Stars also has a pretty good plot, if you like protracted escape stories. Me, I was annoyed that the story ended just when it got to the military academy part, which was what I really wanted to watch. o_O Berserk is regarded by many people as the anime with the most literary and dramatic quality, but the last 5 episodes are so frightening/horriffic that I hesitate to recommend it to anyone. Ghost in the Shell and Akira both have good plot unity because they are short enough to be watched in one sitting. I personally really liked Ai no Kusabi 1 and 2, but not so many people like NC-17 rated gay si-fi romances with bdsm/slavery themes. (Of course I better like them, since I''m writing one.
) I could have done without the tragic ending though.What I''m currently watching is Uninhabited Planet Survive, which has surprisingly good character interaction and directed plot movement for a 50-some episode series targeted at a 10-14 yr old audience. And only half of it has been translated so far, so...
I think a great conflict is necessary, no matter what scale. This is often a function of juxtaposition and POV and scale. Lafcadio the Lionhearted, by Ray Bradbury, is a great example of universal ramification of the tiniest, most natural decision a simple animal could make.
I've said here before a great screenwriter said, "There are only two kinds of stories: a man goes on a journey, or a stranger comes to town."
p.s. Love the new icons.
"A good day's writing is a day well lived, but sometimes it's glamerous and sometimes it's hammerous." - Adventuredesign
I've said here before a great screenwriter said, "There are only two kinds of stories: a man goes on a journey, or a stranger comes to town."
p.s. Love the new icons.
"A good day's writing is a day well lived, but sometimes it's glamerous and sometimes it's hammerous." - Adventuredesign
Examples of effective foozle (what a weird workd) stories that most people will know: Indiana Jones! But what makes it great it not *just* that he's searching for the Holy Grail, but that he's falling in love with a (spy) German, trying to find his dad, curious about God, fighting Nazis, and trying to, of course, save the world. So it gets hard to classify things, and I guess I wouldn't call this a foozle story, even though the main point is to rescue the Holy Grail from the Nazis.
I suppose, then, that a real foozle story is the kind where you're questing for the Uber-Sword-of-Darkness-and-Death (Attack+10000), and have no conversation or dialogue with anyone, would suck. Because there's no reason to read it. Play it as a game, perhaps, but I'd prefer there was more to it - it's just a generic shoot-em-up that forgot to write in the plot.
Outside of the original points you made, s/s, there's really not a whole lot. Pretty much everything can be included into what you have for the motivations. Still, things such as love, jealousy, honor, circumstance, hormones, physical and mental problems, probably deserve some mention here.
I particularly like
Lacking any conclusion to tie this up with, I think I'll just stop before I start rambling.
I suppose, then, that a real foozle story is the kind where you're questing for the Uber-Sword-of-Darkness-and-Death (Attack+10000), and have no conversation or dialogue with anyone, would suck. Because there's no reason to read it. Play it as a game, perhaps, but I'd prefer there was more to it - it's just a generic shoot-em-up that forgot to write in the plot.
Outside of the original points you made, s/s, there's really not a whole lot. Pretty much everything can be included into what you have for the motivations. Still, things such as love, jealousy, honor, circumstance, hormones, physical and mental problems, probably deserve some mention here.
I particularly like
Quote:Original post by sunandshadowOne definition of a story might be "the changing relationship between the character and the object of his desire".because that really is what makes stories great: dynamics. Static, flat characters and relationships just aren't any fun to read. But people who change and are rounded and exciting are well, more exciting to read. So the relationship between (using my same example) Jones (Jr.) and the Grail changes (as does his relationship with his father, woman, Nazi captor, etc.) as he learns more about it, its history and location, and especially as he gets closer to it and sees the power and problems that could be caused by it - namely, God getting really, really mad.
Lacking any conclusion to tie this up with, I think I'll just stop before I start rambling.
Quote:"Examples of effective foozle (what a weird workd) stories that most people will know: Indiana Jones! But what makes it great it not *just* that he's searching for the Holy Grail, but that he's falling in love with a (spy) German, trying to find his dad, curious about God, fighting Nazis, and trying to, of course, save the world. So it gets hard to classify things, and I guess I wouldn't call this a foozle story, even though the main point is to rescue the Holy Grail from the Nazis."
The reason that Grail is the perfect example of the intelligent 'hunt-for-an-object'-story is that the object itself has a symbolic meaning. It's representative of what Indy is *really* hunting for.
Take a look at the ending: Indy gives up on the Grail (very symbolically, when his father tells him to let go of it because he needs him), and they go home without the Grail. But in the process, Indy has gained a father, and we realize that *that* is what the story was about the whole time. The Grail was just a physical manifestation of the goal, but in itself it was unimportant.
That's why 'hunt-for-an-object'-type stories are in no way inferior. The writer just needs to realize that the object itself should function as a mirror for something else, typically an aspect of the protagonist him/herself.
An added power of this type of story is that it functions on two levels: The obvious level (where the Grail is a powerful artifact) and the higher, symbolic level (where the Grail is Indy's relationship to his father).
Quote:Original post by Vaevictis_AAn added power of this type of story is that it functions on two levels: The obvious level (where the Grail is a powerful artifact) and the higher, symbolic level (where the Grail is Indy's relationship to his father).And his relatinoship to god, which is interesting. I like how the movie somewhat combines the theology and history.
But again, I wouldn't want a story that is _only_ focused on an object.
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