Quote:Original post by glBender
I suggest, rather than using checks and balances in the game mechanics to try and control the player judges etc, build it into the actual judicial system. Model it after a real democracy. Use voting, etc. I have more to say, but I have to go, great ideas so far, I like it.

I hope to hear more of what you were thinking. I'm not really sure what you mean by use voting (that is what the 3 or 5 person tribunal is. They VOTE.)

If everything was polled, no one would have time to do anything as they would spend all their time voting. My dream is the players having to balance 3 main things:
1. Developing their own personal business empire
2. Developing their own political contacts, and other things you would expect in a feudal space age system where everyone wants to be king.
3. Dealing with the Law System. You will have the choice to turn down some positions, but you MUST serve as a judge eventually.

And after that, of course, you'll also be dealing with developing your own version of "Plan B". Which is being able to at least go out in a blaze of atomic glory.


I should note, this is my personal holy grail project. A game system where all buildings and ships in game are designed by players, using base components and inside the rules of 'physics' for the game. Players can roam space stations that are full of middle class NPCs that go about their 'lives'. (Sci-Fi aspects let me simplify graphics nicely. Everyone wears a protective hazmat like suit. The more common you are, the simpler it is. High class get to wear outrageous and outlandish costumes with capes and sails, and horribly uncomfortable looking stuff with clashing colours, just because they can) Use of "Security Airlocks" will let me hide load screens.

This is so never happening as I dream, but a simplified graphics form might get off the ground in a few years.

Quote:Original post by Talroth
But an NPC judge can only rule based on hard fact centred around preprogrammed mechanics. This takes all human aspect out of one of a huge part of the game that is attempting to make the human aspect the heart and soul of it, rather than raw number crunching.

I'm not sure, this is looking more and more like something that simply won't work. It needs player freedom, but also a way to keep it from breaking down. Two lines of thought that work against each other.

That's where the three player judges as instant appeals court would intercede. They would validate or repudiate the npc judge's rulings on objections (or other procedural disputes) from the advocates - in addition to serving as the jury. That way the procedural mechanics are mostly left to the npc but the players still have to pay attention to the proceedings - and ultimately pass judgment.

At any rate, whatever you decide to do, you should probably set it up so that none of the judges are from the same factions as either party to the dispute.

Quote:Original post by Talroth
But an NPC judge can only rule based on hard fact centered around preprogrammed mechanics. This takes all human aspect out of one of a huge part of the game that is attempting to make the human aspect the heart and soul of it, rather than raw number crunching.

I'm not sure, this is looking more and more like something that simply won't work. It needs player freedom, but also a way to keep it from breaking down. Two lines of thought that work against each other.

A surefire method of guaranteeing that a criminal committed a crime and is really a criminal is a simple matter of a log of crimes committed. However this doesn't represent the (fun) characteristics of Real Crime, which includes all of the blackest things that humanity is capable of, such as lying, extortion, drug influence, neglect, and making an offer one can't refuse.

If you take a look at some popular sources of related media in Hollywood and on TV, such as Law & Order, the Godfather movies, (haven't watched it but I assume) the Sopranos, Casino, Inside Man, Ocean's 11/12/13, the Italian/Brazilian Job, etc, there are hundreds of factors in every crime, it's never a simple matter.

What I would recommend is a number of pre-defined laws to be decreed, and determine ways to record 'if' they happened. In a sci-fi game, you might have the following galactic crimes, and their associated evidence:
- murder (fingerprints, ballistics forensics)
- piracy (record of sales, or bank-credit transfers)
- acts of aggression inside a neutral zone (witnesses, ship logs)
- extortion (witnesses)
- speaking out against the government (witnesses, particularly by a government official)
- transporting wanted criminals (ship logs, crew and cargo manifests)
- etc

In-game, some of these crimes must be witnessed in order for the perpetrator to be considered for legal reprieval, but if the game can design a paper-trail of checks and balances for certain actions (e.g. a ship automatically records your communicator's signal when you enter or leave a ship... all it takes is one complaint before the cops impound your ship and check the activity logs), then you have a means by which law and order (or at least some semblance thereof) may be maintained.

I think before working on the Judaical concepts more, I'll have to more clearly define the laws, and how the rest of the game actually works. Thinking of its design abstracted from the rest of the game isn't really working that well.

The game world will ideally contain 1000 or more star systems, with 3 main modes of interstellar travel, and 2 for stellar travel.

Star systems will have planets, moons, and asteroid fields as you would expect in most space games, as well as Lagrangian points in solar or planetary orbits (positions in space where things like space stations will remain 'in position' relative to two large gravitational bodies.) to be used for player built 'drifts' or 'stations'. Moons and Planets may also have 'bases' places on their surface.

Moons and Planets will be 'fully mapped', either procedurally or using a 'tile' based system of hightmaps to make storing the 10 to 15 thousand planets and moons easier. Allowing players to place buildings on the surface, such as landing pads, space elevators, mines, refineries, factories, power plants, storage buildings, different levels of housing, and public market areas, as well as more artistic buildings, and things for local government.

All buildings and ships would be made up of predesigned pieces, connection passages, air locks, storage bays, weapon hard points. That sort of thing, which could be modified slightly, and positioned to form new ships and buildings. But that is a whole other thread. Assembling a ship or building in a new design will be easy enough, but to make one that is highly efficient will take a lot of time and in game resources, which will cut down of people spamming large numbers of random designs.

There will be 8 resources to harvest and refine. Going with the idea of 'all matter is energy and you can convert between energy and matter', the 8 different resources will simply be element's core energy layout, and be explained by my favourite science fiction means of "We were slightly wrong".

1. Bio-Common, mostly used in producing food and other life support goods. Some use in alloys. Second most common element.
2. Bio-Rare, mostly used in advanced medical supplies and life support (and illegal cloning). Rather rare.
3. Metal-Common, used in almost all manufactured goods in large amounts. Most common element.
4. Metal-Rare, small amounts used in a lot of things. More advanced thing will of course use more. A very rare elements.
5. Metal-Conductors, used in power systems and computers. (used for illegal Combat Drones and AI minds) Rather rare.
6. Fuel-Common, used in most reactors, and some weapons. Not that common, but not much is really needed.
7. Fuel-Rare, like the rare metals, used for more advanced and more powerful fuels and weapons. (Used for illegal nukes). Very Rare.
8. Exotic-Element. That ultra rare thing used in small amounts to those highly expensive things few people ever see.

Most ores can be found in any system, but large enough concentrations to make the mining and refining process cheap will usually only occur as a single ore type. (meaning a player that takes control of a single system and mines everything for themselves will still be able to make that 'Big Ship of DOOM!', but the players that trade between systems will likely get more for the same cost)

Mined as ores that will carry different amounts of the above elements, they are then refined and yield raw elements based on what refining process is used. (what the player sets his refinery to focus on producing. Better and more expensive equipment will allow a larger portion of the possible ore to be refined.)These are then used in factories to produce a wide range of basic parts, like Hull Plating, Computer Chips, Food Stuffs, other things. Advanced Factories can then turn some of these lesser components into things like prefab building/ship parts, that can then be assembled.

Most cargo is stored in external cargo boxes, in several standard sizes. Smaller internal cargo boxes for the more rare and valuable things, or cheap common things that are just used in smaller amounts. Most cargo ships will have a look similar to a Dune Carry-All, except larger ships being a few km long, and carrying Cargo Boxes the size of a modern day ship.


Ships will be built to classes. A class is the size of the frontal square cross section. From a small 5m shuttle class, a little 20m Transport class, 100m hauler class, and the 200m Freighter class. Anything above that is considered a Super Class, and can not dock at a standard dock class. The length of a ship won't matter too much.
Other aspects binding ship design are, the size of their reactor and the Transit Field they can generate. The larger the field, the more energy it takes, the more energy you are using, the brighter the light you are on sensors. And thus an easier target should the shooting start. Fields will generate a 'blue', a 'green', a 'yellow' and a 'red' line around the ship. Passengers that you would care about must travel in the green zone (blue zone lacking things such as proper artificial gravity, and yellow zone having a higher risk of damage while transiting. Anything that is in the Red Zone will likely be sheared off when you try to transit. These zones may also play a part in things like sensor accuracy, forcing players to retract/extend senors) Good warships will be very hard to design.

Travel will be as I said, one of 3 ways between stars.
A 'FTL Stream Drive' style, worm holes that lets you go nearby stars, get close to the edge of a system and open the portal and travel to a star nearby. Want to go far with this? You'll have to jump between multiple stars. Cheap and effective.
A 'FTL Fold Drive' style. Charge the drive, and pop, you are in another star. Draw backs are far more expensive than slip stream, and higher chance of getting 'lost' the closer you are try to jump to the max range of your drive.

There are no 'gates' and no gate camping as you'll find in other games with these two styles.

A 'FTL Gate System'. Gates of different sizes, from small things a human can push a cart through, to a kilometres wide for space ships. Two way portal. Expensive to setup, expensive to run, but rarely fails, and has no real limit to how far they can go. The farther you set gates apart, the more power it takes. Prime targets in war.

Inside star systems you have your FTL Pulse Drive, and short range gates.

Pulse Drive works like warp drives, your ship points at where you want to go, and you travel faster than light toward it. Still takes a minute to cross a whole star system however.



And back to the Law System.
'Illegal' things will be highly subjective. The use of Atomics, 'Illegal AI', Combat Drones, in and of itself is not illegal, but the conditions and reasons that you used them for may be. I guess what I really need is help defining the conditions (which should be flexible) that make things 'illegal' and other illegal activities.
What actions should a player be allowed to do.

No 'Safe' zones, no NPC guards to protect you from other players. Everything is player made, and player run.

(Still studying economics for how best to run that. But players will likely start with debt from the Crown and have to buy things off the player market. This will require a bit of seeding of the world to get thing started. To keep players from starting a new trial account, buying things, and then dropping them for others to pick up, items owned by a player with debt will be tracked. If you buy something under market value from a player with debt, or pick something up that was owned by a player with debt, you are then responsible for paying the crown the cost of that object should that player go bankrupt.)