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Posted 04 January 2012 - 05:19 PM
Posted 04 January 2012 - 06:56 PM
Most games I've played have had imbalanced or good enough or sometimes even terrible combat systems + mechanics.
Pretty much just one game I think that had a outstanding combat system + mechs.
I won't get into the argument about why I think class based games are doomed to be imbalanced in the 1v1 aspect.
For sake of avoiding that let's assume in this thread that class based games can be balanced as well.
So why is it so rare to find great combat systems + mechanics in games?
I'm sure the designers thought they had created a great great combat s+m.
So this means that most designers are terrible when it comes to PvP.
And I've actually had the opportunity to fight a few devs in different indy games so I know it's true.
So how can we design better combat systems?
First thing I think we all have to just assume is that we designers SUCK at PvP.
Maybe you are great.. But you have to assume you suck.
Another thing before I'll leave it up to us all to start discussing how to design a great combat system + mechanics..
It's already extremely tough to create an interesting, complex, advanced, hard to master etc etc combat s+m..
but if your game has classes in it as well, then you face the additional challenge of balancing these classes.. Which I've never seen accomplished in any game I've played so far.
So if you make a skill based game (no classes) then you only need to worry about creating a good combat system without without sweating about class imbalances.
Posted 04 January 2012 - 07:08 PM
You then replace class imbalances with skill imbalances. Balance is key to any game, class or skill based. Balancing properly is something that most dev teams aren't super great at.
Posted 04 January 2012 - 07:21 PM
Posted 05 January 2012 - 11:53 AM
Latest finished project Project
Posted 05 January 2012 - 03:11 PM
Games with different classes never balance completely at all, afaik thats part of the system. Take a game like starcraft, there are still balance issues a year after release. Or Leagues of legends/Dota that have countless of heroes all with there own unique strategies, stats and abilities. But hey those games still play very well due to the fact they keep balancing the game. There will always come a player that exploits somekind of trait belonging to a certain character/race that is just something you keep having to deal with.
A little outbalanced is not a great deal if the game is deep enough and skill gets more involved. Some people will be able to deal with certain overpowered abilities more then others it's up to the developer to see what has to be changed and what not.
Posted 05 January 2012 - 03:33 PM
Posted 05 January 2012 - 05:11 PM
Imbalanced systems come from simplification. Most online RPGs are dumbed down so much that all fights become a race to 0 HP. If you deal more damage, you win. If a class ends up dealing more damage overall, it's seen as imbalanced. Randomness will make other classes feel like they stand a chance, but overall, the more powerful class will win more often.
To get a balanced system, you need to offer players a choice that will put the combat in their favor at any point. Even if they lost a part of the battle, they can still come victorious because they used the right skill at the right time. It should be like playing rock paper scissor until someone wins 5 times. Because you lose the first 3 rounds do not mean you lost the battle, just that you are unlikely to win it. For that, you need to add other mechanics, but that ends up adding complexity because it doesn't follow the standard damage race battle system.
Posted 09 January 2012 - 07:07 AM
Posted 09 January 2012 - 02:58 PM
Rock Paper Scissor is as much luck based than a game where you can choose between a few actions and the result will depend on what action the other guy did. Fighting games are fancy RPS implementations and they are not considered luck based.
Posted 10 January 2012 - 06:56 AM
Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:06 AM
This depends on the player's skill level. At high level, yes they can identify and use a counter move and this is not random at all. However, you need lots of practice and you need to study the game down to the frame length of every skill and have muscle memory of combos. For mortals, the reaction time is too slow to counter moves as they come, so it becomes a game of second guessing where you pick a move and pit it against whatever the other guy picked. Pattern identification is crucial at this level, just like it is with RPS. It's easy to identify and counter the thought patterns of an RPS player after a few games. Few people play RPS in a pure random manner.
Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:12 AM
Recap: We can't trust ourselves, we have to assume we don't know exactly what we're doing. We don't know which players know how to do it the right way. So my conclusion, I hate it but.. We have to design the combat so that the majority, mass players enjoy it. Aka simpify it, add RNG and classes for lots of diversity and randomness etc.
Posted 10 January 2012 - 11:55 AM
Posted 10 January 2012 - 01:34 PM
I believe it's fairly easy to design entertaining combat mechanics if you drop the the RPG-goggles.
Pretty much nobody even discussed balancing of first person shooters until the arrival of level based shooters and while some maintain that several fighting games are severely broken, it takes a lot of dedication to arrive at a point where such nuances become noticeable. Also there are a number of sword fighting games that have extremely rewarding player versus player combat, despite the usage of inventories and skill-levels. The list goes on.
What I'm saying is that player versus player combat in traditional RPGs are just a "run to 0 HP" because that is exactly how they are designed. That works very well in a table-top game but doesn't deliver when you want interesting player versus player fights.
Posted 11 January 2012 - 09:17 AM
I believe rpg styled combat systems can work great if done well, I still think the combat system Ultima Online had has been the best one so far.
Back then (like 10-15 years or something?) I wasn't elite as I am now but I was limited by my internet connection back then giving me high ping.
But I am 99% sure that when you get near to the max potential of human skill in that game.. It's not possible to kill another player 1v1 if both are playing perfectly.. Which is great, It took a lot of skill to heal yourself, and even more skill to kill, and the only way to kill was by playing perfectly longer than your opponent and putting enough pressure to cause him to make a mistake, and to try and be the attacker as much as possible instead of the healer.
Posted 11 January 2012 - 11:39 AM
Posted 11 January 2012 - 12:54 PM
I agree with the post before mine. Lower the power curve from start to end game and it generally provides more enjoyable PvP.
I guess the real issue I am coming up against is in regards to how to make PvP in an open world without it becoming a gankfest.
For example: World of Warcraft(Don't slap me, seriously).
I found the open world PvP on a PvP server to hold no meaning aside from harassing other players. There was no "greater good" for your side to fight for. What could be done to make the PvP more meaningful?
On the other side I found PvE servers to be dreadfully boring. Alliance and Horde walking side by side? Dirty.
So, how could we avoid having PvE and PvP servers? Well, to have both built into one game. Those that want to PvE can have a safe area to avoid PvP conflict, but the PvE players travel would have to be limited to avoid PvP areas. So how can this all be done using the world design of World of Warcraft as a basic concepting process? How can you promote healthy meaningful PvP while still providing an enjoyable experience for those that don't care as much about PvP?
Simply having PvP and PvE servers is not a good solution in my mind. It causes a division of players right from the get go. I see guilds get split up because of bad experiences using systems like this in the past. How can we avoid that in the future?
Posted 11 January 2012 - 02:31 PM
You're about to make the thread go off topic :/
I want to give my opinion but then I'd just help making it off topic lol
Posted 30 January 2012 - 04:58 PM