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• ##### Unreal Awards $275k in Latest Round of Unreal Dev Grants • ##### Unreal 4.16 Released • ##### Microsoft's Slim AR Form Factor • ##### YoYo Games Releases GameMaker 2 Education edition View more ### Image of the Day Submit IOTD | Top Screenshots ### The latest, straight to your Inbox. Subscribe to GameDev.net Direct to receive the latest updates and exclusive content. Sign up now # US Government Will Never Fix It's Financial Problems Old topic! Guest, the last post of this topic is over 60 days old and at this point you may not reply in this topic. If you wish to continue this conversation start a new topic. 113 replies to this topic ### #813Ddreamer Members Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:10 PM Here is another "bomb shell" of reality from me to everybody: The combined vote of everybody is dominated by how people vote with their money! This is why the leadership of corporations is more powerful than all governments combined and the world is still getting worse. When will people begin to realize the power of how they "vote" with their money? In a related issue, a court ruling by the United States Supreme court lifted the limits on campaign contributions a couple years ago, resulting in the record for campaign contributions by corporations exceeding previous records by a wide increase. How corporations vote with their money in local, state, and national campaign contributions causes politicians to seek the money instead of the will of the people! Added to this tragedy is that individuals undermine their own vote by how they spend their money! Clinton Personal life and your private thoughts always effect your career. Research is the intellectual backbone of game development and the first order. Version Control is crucial for full management of applications and software. The better the workflow pipeline, then the greater the potential output for a quality game. Completing projects is the last but finest order. by Clinton, 3Ddreamer ### #82Promit Senior Moderators Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:01 AM Well, I'm convinced of one thing: Under no circumstances should any member of GameDev be allowed to wield any position of government or economic authority. SlimDX | Shark Eaters for iOS | Ventspace Blog | Twitter | Proud supporter of diversity and inclusiveness in game development ### #833Ddreamer Members Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:15 AM LOL Clinton Personal life and your private thoughts always effect your career. Research is the intellectual backbone of game development and the first order. Version Control is crucial for full management of applications and software. The better the workflow pipeline, then the greater the potential output for a quality game. Completing projects is the last but finest order. by Clinton, 3Ddreamer ### #84HostileExpanse Members Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:37 AM Job training and small business investment will minimize the unemployment problem .... Reducing unemployment to the 4-5% area closes half of the deficits by itself, with no need to change any tax rates. ### #853Ddreamer Members Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:46 AM So true Clinton Personal life and your private thoughts always effect your career. Research is the intellectual backbone of game development and the first order. Version Control is crucial for full management of applications and software. The better the workflow pipeline, then the greater the potential output for a quality game. Completing projects is the last but finest order. by Clinton, 3Ddreamer ### #86Jacob Jingle Members Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:12 AM Exactly - as politically incorrect as it is, history shows that people are generally evil So you think the problem will get better if we consolidate power into fewer hands? The stock market is a great example of this: It's a race to see who can 'play' the stocks enough to get rich quick at the expense of everyone else playing the stock market. Admittingly without having much experience in it, it seems to me that most the stock-market laws are designed to keep people from 'cheating' at a system that is built entirely around stealing from each other. Yeah, I remember when a guy called Bill Gates stuck a gun in my face and forced me to buy shares in his worthless company in the 80's. From the looks of that gangster, he probably used my money to buy worthless stuff that had nothing to do with his small business and the company probably folded in a week... When are people going to stop with this zero-sum game garbage? *Buffett(The King of Crony Capitalism) really isn't the best person to cite as the gold standard. He's a good example of what happens when you give all the power and money to a few. ### #87mdwh Members Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:55 AM @JTippetts: Wait - are you actually comparing Obama/Democrats to communism? That's not at all the same thing. Both US parties are predominantly capitalist, though both with support for some state funded and managed parts of the economy (Republicans still support state managed child education for example, and try arguing against their state funded/managed military...) Democrat are more "left wing", offering better support for things like welfare and state healthcare, but neither are remotely anything to do with communism. Communism / Socialism ( almost the same thing ) is one of the core "values" of the Democratic Party. No, it isn't. I would suggest actually researching Marxism / Socialism, and stop assuming they have nothing to do with "left wing" politics . I never said that. Obviously communism is an extreme form of left wing, but that doesn't mean that any support for "left wing" policies means you're a communist society (or party). As I say, the Republicans support state funded/managed things (like the military) too. And please, let's drop the "I would suggest actually researching" talk as if you're assuming you're right and everyone who disagrees is uneducated. As others have said, both US parties are broadly economically right wing. Both support some involvement of the state, and neither are remotely anything to do with wanting a socialist or communist society. That's laughable. if the economy collapses, which is what we're talking about in this thread, agriculture is going to become waaay more important than it is now. Depends how it collapses - owning the means of production for create farming equipment would be pretty important. Plus I'm confused - I thought this stemmed from JTippets advocating pure capitalism, so I'm not sure why the point now being made is that farmers would be better off in some subsistence based society. We do need to clamp down on them. Not because they are a significant drain on society (they are just a drop in a very large bucket), but because they give others an excuse to accuse all poor people of being lazy. I do think those who are determined to get out of poverty can get out of poverty. One of the problems in "clamping down" is that it just makes things much harder for everyone, not just the few exploiting the system. And the evidence to me suggests that clamping down never stops the critics - they are often completely unaware as to what systems are already in place, or how hard it already is, but continue to believe the one overblown story in the Daily Mail about someone exploiting the system, and will continue to support on yet more clamping down, and continue to believe all such people are "lazy". On a related note, should we also clamp down on multinationals using legal tax loopholes? http://erebusrpg.sourceforge.net/ - Erebus, Open Source RPG for Windows/Linux/Android http://conquests.sourceforge.net/ - Conquests, Open Source Civ-like Game for Windows/Linux ### #88way2lazy2care Members Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:41 PM One of the problems in "clamping down" is that it just makes things much harder for everyone, not just the few exploiting the system. I am not a fan of this excuse. If you are unemployed seeking welfare and are not disabled, it should be a little bit hard. Able bodied people should never get something for nothing. As far as able bodied people are concerned, welfare is there to support people who don't have the means to support themselves, not to support people who do not want to work to support themselves. At least it shouldn't be that way imo. ### #89ChaosEngine Members Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:48 PM Well, I'm convinced of one thing: Under no circumstances should any member of GameDev be allowed to wield any position of government or economic authority. Meh, we couldn't really #$%^ it up more than it already has been.

/plays civilisation

On second thoughts, you're probably right
if you think programming is like sex, you probably haven't done much of either.-------------- - capn_midnight

### #90The_Neverending_Loop  Members

Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:56 PM

One of the problems in "clamping down" is that it just makes things much harder for everyone, not just the few exploiting the system.

I am not a fan of this excuse. If you are unemployed seeking welfare and are not disabled, it should be a little bit hard. Able bodied people should never get something for nothing. As far as able bodied people are concerned, welfare is there to support people who don't have the means to support themselves, not to support people who do not want to work to support themselves. At least it shouldn't be that way imo.

Everyone on welfare (atleast for new york) works. You don't get the benefits unless you have a job. Again with the concept of "people who do not want to work", that is a terribly ugly assumption anyone who uses that argument makes. Just because someone can't currently be hired for a specialized/techinical field doesnt mean they are lazy and unwilling to work. If you worked a minimum wage job in the U.S you would more then likely be on welfare, you would not be able to provide for yourself. Atleast if they have a little bit of support they can try to make a change in their lives or if not in their kids life.

### #91HostileExpanse  Members

Posted 28 November 2012 - 02:22 PM

Look at the election maps for the recent presidential election, see who voted Romney and who voted Obama. The blue dots are almost a picture-perfect portrait of the urban areas. The red dots, conversely, outline the rural. The producers. This election, more than any election I have witnessed in the context of this place, struck fear into the hearts of the producers of this country.

What a ridiculous premise.

### #92way2lazy2care  Members

Posted 28 November 2012 - 02:49 PM

Everyone on welfare (atleast for new york) works. You don't get the benefits unless you have a job. Again with the concept of "people who do not want to work", that is a terribly ugly assumption anyone who uses that argument makes.

That's not at all the argument I was making.

### #93The_Neverending_Loop  Members

Posted 28 November 2012 - 03:51 PM

Everyone on welfare (atleast for new york) works. You don't get the benefits unless you have a job. Again with the concept of "people who do not want to work", that is a terribly ugly assumption anyone who uses that argument makes.

That's not at all the argument I was making.

Your argument is invalid then, since unemployed people dont get welfare, they get unemployment. Again for my state atleast no one gets something for nothing, you need employment to recieve it.

### #94way2lazy2care  Members

Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:41 PM

Your argument is invalid then, since unemployed people dont get welfare, they get unemployment. Again for my state atleast no one gets something for nothing, you need employment to recieve it.

You can get both welfare and unemployment at the same time. If you have children there's an even broader crapload of welfare your world opens to regardless of work status.

### #95Khaiy  Members

Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:32 PM

Everyone on welfare (atleast for new york) works. You don't get the benefits unless you have a job. Again with the concept of "people who do not want to work", that is a terribly ugly assumption anyone who uses that argument makes.
...
Your argument is invalid then, since unemployed people dont get welfare, they get unemployment. Again for my state atleast no one gets something for nothing, you need employment to recieve it.

It's ineffective to assume in an argument that the way it works in New York has much to do with how things work anywhere else. Also, in discussions like these people who say "welfare" (especially in regards to cutting it/making it more difficult to get) tend to mean all government transfers to working-age adults. This includes what the word "welfare" actually refers to (cash transfers, housing subsidies, etc.) and also things like WIC/SNAP (food stamps) or Medicaid. I've yet to see a discussion where that distinction mattered to the argument being made by either party, but maybe this is the one.

And you don't need to be employed to get welfare, depending on where you live and other circumstances of your life.

I am not a fan of this excuse. If you are unemployed seeking welfare and are not disabled, it should be a little bit hard. Able bodied people should never get something for nothing. As far as able bodied people are concerned, welfare is there to support people who don't have the means to support themselves, not to support people who do not want to work to support themselves. At least it shouldn't be that way imo.
...
You can get both welfare and unemployment at the same time. If you have children there's an even broader crapload of welfare your world opens to regardless of work status.

Again, depending on where you live. But even in places where it's possible to get government cash benefits without working, surely there's a point where what's being asked of the applicant is unreasonable. Securing welfare benefits is already (again, depending on where you live and other circumstances) quite a bit more than "a little bit hard", not to mention invasive and often dehumanizing. It's not like you walk into a building and then twenty minutes later leave with a check. Do you have a particular point in mind when it's sufficiently difficult that an applicant has earned the benefits?

My preferred argument against "clamping down" on government benefit fraud is that it adds to the cost of those programs while helping no additional people. How much of a premium would you be willing to pay on each dollar of government benefits paid to an honest recipient to deny a dishonest applicant?

-------R.I.P.-------

Selective Quote

~Too Late - Too Soon~

### #96Hodgman  Moderators

Posted 28 November 2012 - 09:25 PM

From the perspective of an outsider, it's the assumption that the Democratic Party has much to do with "left wing" politics that is faulty. Seriously, it's joked up in Canada that the US has no left-wing - just a hard right-wing party and a moderate centrist party. You can probably figure out which party is which.

Er, no, it's a hard-right party and a moderate-right party. The only time I hear reasonably centrist politics from Americans is when I talk to actual people on the street (and it very much depends on which street I'm visiting and if they know I'm Canadian or not).

That's why I can't stand to listen when Americans complain about their "left wing" government.

You've got a far-right party and a centre-right party, and the whole system is designed so that they're your only two choices.

You've got this massive reality TV show you call an election (which frankly, is treated as a joke overseas) and so much energy is put into making it seem like the most important thing in the world. So much effort is spent trying to rally people to one side or another, and emotionally engaging with one cult while truly hating the other cult. You need to pick a side and be part of it, as if it actually matters.
The real power, the people that own your country, that own you, also own both sides. They don't care who wins, because it doesn't matter. Governments will come and go and make small changes and manage things differently, and your culture of extreme opinions, fundamentalist viewpoints and fanatical emotions will ensure that these changes are seen to be earth-shattering, and "debated" ad nauseum in that farcical style you excel at. You'll keep sweating over the little stuff, and whatever happens, don't take off whatever lenses those are that cause every world-view to be distorted and corrupted and taken to the complete extreme until it's a joke that you can't see.
But when it comes to the seats of power, the status quo will remain unchanged. Money is power, debt is power.
You're in debt because the powers that be want you to be in debt. The interest on your debt is profit to someone, and as your debts grow, their profits grow, and we all know that 'growth' is good.

There's leaches at every level of society, with the biggest, fattest leaches at the top. But never mind them, if you just keep working hard maybe one day you can become one of those fat leaches. You can't, but lets go along with the dream. Meanwhile, look at the leaches feeding at the bottom. Look at that drug dealer pushing H to kids, driving a luxury car and scamming the food-stamps system. He's the problem. Never mind that this festering underworld of bottom feeding is a necessary by-product of the existence of the fat leaches you dream of being. Never mind that, we've got to rally against the threat of poverty, by ensuring it's cycle can't be broken and the policies that create it are only strengthened.

The whole thing is a joke, and it's a sick joke, because you don't realise the whole world is laughing at you, not with you.

Edited by Hodgman, 28 November 2012 - 09:27 PM.

### #97Prinz Eugn  Members

Posted 28 November 2012 - 09:47 PM

From the perspective of an outsider, it's the assumption that the Democratic Party has much to do with "left wing" politics that is faulty. Seriously, it's joked up in Canada that the US has no left-wing - just a hard right-wing party and a moderate centrist party. You can probably figure out which party is which.

Er, no, it's a hard-right party and a moderate-right party. The only time I hear reasonably centrist politics from Americans is when I talk to actual people on the street (and it very much depends on which street I'm visiting and if they know I'm Canadian or not).

That's why I can't stand to listen when Americans complain about their "left wing" government.

You've got a far-right party and a centre-right party, and the whole system is designed so that they're your only two choices.

You've got this massive reality TV show you call an election (which frankly, is treated as a joke overseas) and so much energy is put into making it seem like the most important thing in the world. So much effort is spent trying to rally people to one side or another, and emotionally engaging with one cult while truly hating the other cult. You need to pick a side and be part of it, as if it actually matters.
The real power, the people that own your country, that own you, also own both sides. They don't care who wins, because it doesn't matter. Governments will come and go and make small changes and manage things differently, and your culture of extreme opinions, fundamentalist viewpoints and fanatical emotions will ensure that these changes are seen to be earth-shattering, and "debated" ad nauseum in that farcical style you excel at. You'll keep sweating over the little stuff, and whatever happens, don't take off whatever lenses those are that cause every world-view to be distorted and corrupted and taken to the complete extreme until it's a joke that you can't see.
But when it comes to the seats of power, the status quo will remain unchanged. Money is power, debt is power.
You're in debt because the powers that be want you to be in debt. The interest on your debt is profit to someone, and as your debts grow, their profits grow, and we all know that 'growth' is good.

There's leaches at every level of society, with the biggest, fattest leaches at the top. But never mind them, if you just keep working hard maybe one day you can become one of those fat leaches. You can't, but lets go along with the dream. Meanwhile, look at the leaches feeding at the bottom. Look at that drug dealer pushing H to kids, driving a luxury car and scamming the food-stamps system. He's the problem. Never mind that this festering underworld of bottom feeding is a necessary by-product of the existence of the fat leaches you dream of being. Never mind that, we've got to rally against the threat of poverty, by ensuring it's cycle can't be broken and the policies that create it are only strengthened.

The whole thing is a joke, and it's a sick joke, because you don't realise the whole world is laughing at you, not with you.

ho hum, this must be the internet.

-Mark the Artist

Digital Art and Technical Design
Developer Journal

### #98Bacterius  Members

Posted 29 November 2012 - 06:58 AM

From the perspective of an outsider, it's the assumption that the Democratic Party has much to do with "left wing" politics that is faulty. Seriously, it's joked up in Canada that the US has no left-wing - just a hard right-wing party and a moderate centrist party. You can probably figure out which party is which.

Er, no, it's a hard-right party and a moderate-right party. The only time I hear reasonably centrist politics from Americans is when I talk to actual people on the street (and it very much depends on which street I'm visiting and if they know I'm Canadian or not).

That's why I can't stand to listen when Americans complain about their "left wing" government.

You've got a far-right party and a centre-right party, and the whole system is designed so that they're your only two choices.

You've got this massive reality TV show you call an election (which frankly, is treated as a joke overseas) and so much energy is put into making it seem like the most important thing in the world. So much effort is spent trying to rally people to one side or another, and emotionally engaging with one cult while truly hating the other cult. You need to pick a side and be part of it, as if it actually matters.
The real power, the people that own your country, that own you, also own both sides. They don't care who wins, because it doesn't matter. Governments will come and go and make small changes and manage things differently, and your culture of extreme opinions, fundamentalist viewpoints and fanatical emotions will ensure that these changes are seen to be earth-shattering, and "debated" ad nauseum in that farcical style you excel at. You'll keep sweating over the little stuff, and whatever happens, don't take off whatever lenses those are that cause every world-view to be distorted and corrupted and taken to the complete extreme until it's a joke that you can't see.
But when it comes to the seats of power, the status quo will remain unchanged. Money is power, debt is power.
You're in debt because the powers that be want you to be in debt. The interest on your debt is profit to someone, and as your debts grow, their profits grow, and we all know that 'growth' is good.

There's leaches at every level of society, with the biggest, fattest leaches at the top. But never mind them, if you just keep working hard maybe one day you can become one of those fat leaches. You can't, but lets go along with the dream. Meanwhile, look at the leaches feeding at the bottom. Look at that drug dealer pushing H to kids, driving a luxury car and scamming the food-stamps system. He's the problem. Never mind that this festering underworld of bottom feeding is a necessary by-product of the existence of the fat leaches you dream of being. Never mind that, we've got to rally against the threat of poverty, by ensuring it's cycle can't be broken and the policies that create it are only strengthened.

The whole thing is a joke, and it's a sick joke, because you don't realise the whole world is laughing at you, not with you.

This could be said of pretty much any government, though. USA just happens to omnipresent and thus more noticeable. It's the same system basically everywhere in the world, carefully engineered through years of government trial and error to keep citizens under control through endless "debates" and "elections", working hard to make it look as if they are actually making a difference when everything is really decided for them. Yeah, I'm pessimistic. Sorry.

“If I understand the standard right it is legal and safe to do this but the resulting value could be anything.”

### #99samoth  Members

Posted 29 November 2012 - 07:38 AM

...in a few years, you'll be owned by communist China anyway.

Just who do you think owns the debt this topic was originally about?

That discussion comes a decade or two too late, though. You've been at war with China since at least the 1980s without realizing, and China has won. Unluckily, the same is true for "us" (Europe). I really wish I could point my finger at you and laugh, but it is exactly the same here.
The takeover and extinction has begun, and there is hardly a way to stop it now. In a few years, there will remain hardly any healthy young adults. In a few decades, there will remain none.

10 years ago, hardly anyone here had ever seen a real Chinese (other than the "Chinese" at the Chinese restaurant somewhere downtown, in a land far far away). Now, there is a couple or two living in nearly every street in town. The invaders are in your place, they hold key positions, and they're preparing the takeover. And, governments are only too happy to play into their hands (pushing tax money to China subsidizing solar energy in a country that doesn't have sun, building maglevs "for free" in faraway countries from tax funds, bending immigration laws to fill academic positions and executive positions in the industry, etc.).

The Chinese are diligent, and they have been working hard on getting ownership on anything they could grasp, reducing fertility, and increasing the incidence of obesity and diabetes for three decades. You don't seriously believe that decades of phtalates, lead, mercury, and other stealthy poisons in exported baby toys are purely accidential, do you? You don't assume that exporting high-arsenic high-glucose rice and keeping/importing (e.g. from India) the low-arsenic-low-glucose one for one's self is an incident? You don't believe that the massive increase (during the last decade) of corn starch addition to nearly every food that you can buy in a supermarket was a coincidence?

Edited by samoth, 29 November 2012 - 07:40 AM.

### #100Jacob Jingle  Members

Posted 29 November 2012 - 09:48 AM

You've got a far-right party and a centre-right party, and the whole system is designed so that they're your only two choices.

Far-right for us(Americans) is libertarianism...and last time I looked, we were anything but that. (IMHO, what we're currently doing mirrors our disastrous Progressive Era)

American Progressive:
Progressives want government to have a great deal of power over the economy and individual behavior. They frequently doubt whether economic liberty and individual freedom are practical options in today's world. Progressives tend to distrust the free market, support high taxes and centralized planning of the economy, oppose diverse lifestyles, and question the importance of civil liberties.

Edited by Jacob Jingle, 29 November 2012 - 09:48 AM.

Old topic!

Guest, the last post of this topic is over 60 days old and at this point you may not reply in this topic. If you wish to continue this conversation start a new topic.