programming debate

*Shrug* Depends on how you define programming, and how you define a programming language.

You could say a programming language must be turing-complete, but that leaves out a lot of DSL's, as well as SQL.
Or you could say it's text that is compiled to machine instructions. But that leaves out scripting languages.
Or you could say something vague like "a programming language is just something that, through textual code, instructs the computer on what to do", in which case, even html is a programming language.

There's no official definition. You'll just have to pick on you like.

Hey, everyone! Let's argue about the nuances surrounding the definition of a word! Since everyone will have their own subtly different conception of the word's true meaning, there will be absolutely no reasonable way to find common ground! Nothing will be elucidated and nothing will be gained. What a blast this will be!

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Original post by Sneftel Hey, everyone! Let's argue about the nuances surrounding the definition of a word! Since everyone will have their own subtly different conception of the word's true meaning, there will be absolutely no reasonable way to find common ground! Nothing will be elucidated and nothing will be gained. What a blast this will be!

Yay! Let's argue the definition of the word "definition." That should be fun.

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Original post by Spoonbender There's no official definition. You'll just have to pick on you like.

According to a definition, HTML - as its name implies is not a programming language.

Cheers,
Pat.

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You could say a programming language must be turing-complete, but that leaves out a lot of DSL's, as well as SQL.

SQL isn't a programming language. Your probably misapplying the word DSL, too, when you say that they're not turing complete. See computer language.

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Original post by Avont29 [13:30] Avont29: ok, whatever you say..umm can i send u the css [13:30] aboxinabox: no [13:30] Avont29: why? [13:31] aboxinabox: anyone who says that html is programming knows nothing about computing

You don't want to help him because he doesn't know about computing? What kind of a reason is that!!

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Original post by bytecoder Quote: You could say a programming language must be turing-complete, but that leaves out a lot of DSL's, as well as SQL. SQL isn't a programming language. Your probably misapplying the word DSL, too, when you say that they're not turing complete. See computer language.

You completely and utterly missed my point... [wink]
I was simply suggesting a handful of commonly used definitions of "programming language". All three of them are commonly used, and all three are equally commonly disagreed with. I'm not saying any one of them is the correct one.
A lot of people would say SQL is a programming language. The only way you can argue against them is to say "But it isn't according to the definition I use".
Which doesn't really prove anything.

As for DSL's, or domain-specific languages, they might or might not be turing-complete. They aren't always, but they can still be considered programming languages. Just very specialized ones that only solve a small subset of problems.

Also, this may come as news to you, but Wikipedia is not an official or definite source to *anything*. They can define a computer language as "a light green bunch of bananas" for all I care.
As I said, there is no absolute definition of "programming language". You can listen to Wikipedia, or you can make up your own definition as you like.

As for HTML, here's a snippet from the glossary you posted:

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HTML Hypertext Markup Language is the basic language used to write web pages. HTML is a mark up language and not a full-blown programming language so is therefore essentially static in nature. HTML is parsed by your web browser when a web page downloads and consists of tags (commands to tell the browser how to render the text

Ok, it's a markup language. True. But hey, it says language.
HTML is parsed by your web browser.
Yes, and Python is parsed by an interpreter. Big difference.
It consists of tags (commands to tell the browser how to render the text)".
Yep, and other languages consist of commands that tell the computer how to... Render text. Or draw graphics. Or perform mathematical operations. Again, big difference. Of course HTML is much more limited and specialized than, say, C++.

But it's still a language that is used to make the computer perform a set of desired operations.

That might as well be a definition of a programming language. And it's just as valid as the Wikipedia one.

Hello, I'm the person that Avont29 was talking to.

I agree with darookie (and bytecoder too). HTML is not a programming language, as it defines a web page, and does not generate any machine code (compiled and interpreted languages each - at some stage - result in machine codes being sent to the processor). As such, HTML is data.

It could also be argued that HTML is an interpreted language. It isn't because a HTML file doesn't provide a set of instructions, and cannot be executed by an interpreter.

Might be a pointless discussion, but I'd thought I'd defend myself anyway. :)

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Original post by ABoxInABox Hello, I'm the person that Avont29 was talking to. I agree with darookie (and bytecoder too). HTML is not a programming language, as it defines a web page, and does not generate any machine code (compiled and interpreted languages each - at some stage - result in machine codes being sent to the processor). As such, HTML is data. It could also be argued that HTML is an interpreted language. It isn't because a HTML file doesn't provide a set of instructions, and cannot be executed by an interpreter. Might be a pointless discussion, but I'd thought I'd defend myself anyway. :)

To sum this up, html isn't turing complete.

box, it s till can be considered coding

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Original post by Spoonbender Quote: Original post by bytecoder Quote: You could say a programming language must be turing-complete, but that leaves out a lot of DSL's, as well as SQL. SQL isn't a programming language. Your probably misapplying the word DSL, too, when you say that they're not turing complete. See computer language. You completely and utterly missed my point... [wink] I was simply suggesting a handful of commonly used definitions of "programming language". All three of them are commonly used, and all three are equally commonly disagreed with. I'm not saying any one of them is the correct one. A lot of people would say SQL is a programming language. The only way you can argue against them is to say "But it isn't according to the definition I use". Which doesn't really prove anything. As for DSL's, or domain-specific languages, they might or might not be turing-complete. They aren't always, but they can still be considered programming languages. Just very specialized ones that only solve a small subset of problems. Also, this may come as news to you, but Wikipedia is not an official or definite source to *anything*. They can define a computer language as "a light green bunch of bananas" for all I care. As I said, there is no absolute definition of "programming language". You can listen to Wikipedia, or you can make up your own definition as you like.

I see you completely and utterly missed my point, and that point would be... *runs*

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Original post by ABoxInABox I agree with darookie (and bytecoder too). HTML is not a programming language, as it defines a web page, and does not generate any machine code (compiled and interpreted languages each - at some stage - result in machine codes being sent to the processor). As such, HTML is data.

So nothing is sent to the processor when you open a HTML page in your browser? That's obviously not true.
It only defines some very high-level operations (place this picture here, render this text with that font"), but they are still ultimately converted into machine codes that are sent to the processor.

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It could also be argued that HTML is an interpreted language. It isn't because a HTML file doesn't provide a set of instructions, and cannot be executed by an interpreter.

Again, it does.
Every HTML tag is a (high-level) instruction. And it is executed by the interpreter called "a browser".

I personally wouldn't consider HTML a "proper" programming language either, no, but that's just my personal preference, not some law of nature.
I'm just saying that it might as well be a programming language. HTML does fulfill a lot of commonly used "requirements" for a programming language.
It isn't compiled no, but it is interpreted. It defines a set of operations that are interpreted by a browser, and ultimately converted into machine code that is executed on the CPU.
It allows you to write code that describes instructions sent to the computer.

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Original post by ABoxInABox HTML is not a programming language, as it defines a web page, and does not generate any machine code (compiled and interpreted languages each - at some stage - result in machine codes being sent to the processor). As such, HTML is data.

Wait, so a scripting language sends machine code to the processor (through the interpreter) but HTML doesn't do this through the browser?
For me a programming language enables the programmer to control the behaviour of the computer, HTML would be a programming language in this case. It doesn't really matter though to be honest...

Edit: I'm slow :(

Am I the only one who believes Lode's point makes the most sense?

Every 'language' processed by computers involves commands being sent to the processor, so all these languages would be programming languages if you follow a strict definition. This includes all file formats, which define a sequence of bytes that is interpreted by the file format reader.

So I guess we need a better definition.

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Original post by bytecoder To sum this up, html isn't turing complete.

Turing complete is more like a type of programming language, rather than the definition of them. Turing incomplete languages can generate machine code as well, even if it's not anything useful. But since HTML doesn't generate machine code, it's not a programming language, it's a form of data.

And Avont: It is coding, but it is not programming.

Edit: I'll do my best to keep up with replys.

If we wanna break out Semantics...
Programming Language.

Language = A system of symbols and rules used for communication with or between computers.
Programming = Creating a sequence of instructions to enable the computer to do something

HTML satisfies this.

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Original post by Sneftel Hey, everyone! Let's argue about the nuances surrounding the definition of a word! Since everyone will have their own subtly different conception of the word's true meaning, there will be absolutely no reasonable way to find common ground! Nothing will be elucidated and nothing will be gained. What a blast this will be!

Winner

Edit: Whereas I think it 'is' a programming language, scripting is a far more fitting title.

I agree with ABoxInABox.

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Original post by ABoxInABox Quote: Original post by bytecoder To sum this up, html isn't turing complete. Turing complete is more like a type of programming language, rather than the definition of them. Turing incomplete languages can generate machine code as well, even if it's not anything useful. But since HTML doesn't generate machine code, it's not a programming language, it's a form of data. And Avont: It is coding, but it is not programming. Edit: I'll do my best to keep up with replys.

Who says programming languages have to compile to machine code?

I also agree that HTML isn't a programming language. Saying that it is because the processor executes instructions is stupid, and actually the html file isn't executed, it is parsed by another program which then display the content. If HTML is a programming language, then a .xls document (MS Excel file) is also a programming language, since it is parsed by a program (browser/excel) and then the program display some data it found in the file.

HTML is just a way to "markup" data.


EDIT:
Also from wikipedia:

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A programming language or computer language is a standardized communication technique for expressing instructions to a computer. It is a set of syntactic and semantic rules used to define computer programs. A language enables a programmer to precisely specify (but see Genetic Programming) what data a computer will act upon, how these data will be stored/transmitted, and what actions will be taken under various circumstances.

And

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A computer program or software program (usually abbreviated to "a program") is a step-by-step list of instructions written for a particular computer architecture in a particular computer programming language.

Would you say a HTML file is a list of "step-by-step" instructions, and is also written for a particular computer architecture?