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Chess Question... Pawn to Queen!


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#21 haro   Members   -  Reputation: 502

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Posted 21 June 2003 - 01:56 AM

In blitz chess when you are trying to finish off your opponent with 5 seconds left on the clock I would rarely promote to a queen. A rook makes things just as simple and there is virtually no chance of an accidental stale mate.

If I am killing an opponent and he refuses to resign I tend to promote 'all' of my remaining pawns to knights and bishops and create picturesque mates. I would never play a program that didn't allow the choice. In fact, I wouldn't even call a program that didn't allow the choice a "chess program". On the other hand I would also never play a chess program that did not allow me to use the typical 2d graphics piece set either. I never understood the point of 'pretty' chess pieces for computer/online play.

Underpromotion is as basic a concept as en passant. I presume you've implemented en passant.. right?


[edited by - haro on June 21, 2003 10:53:59 AM]

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#22 Moondoggy   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 21 June 2003 - 02:18 AM

quote:
Original post by haro
I presume you''ve implemented en passant.. right?



No not yet!

#23 ah_bk88   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 21 June 2003 - 02:42 PM

quote:

Alternatively, show a queen in place on the promotion square, and swap it for the knight model once a second or so (maybe with a cool morphing effect). Either way, you click on the appropriate model to complete the move.


Yeah, I''m voting for this one... That wouldn''t take any extra screen space, no popup dialog boxes, etc. I like this idea.

#24 Nikoko   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 21 June 2003 - 09:36 PM

It''s a good idea, but if the player must play fast (blitz mode etc.), 1 sec per figure is too long ! I saw a player who has played 6 moves in less than 1 sec ! (I have checked the digits).

So in my point of view, I think the better way to promote a pawn is to use keyboard with a simple question (no popup if you dont want):
Q for queen, R for rock, etc. (of course K is for knight not for King ;-)) it''s a simple way but the most efficient.

(sorry for my bad english)

#25 The Pentium Guy   Members   -  Reputation: 160

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Posted 22 June 2003 - 03:48 AM

doing that would confuse the user..
u should have a pop up box, saying, choose left or right.

when u hit left, it would to to the next peice

#26 Sander   Members   -  Reputation: 1328

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Posted 22 June 2003 - 08:16 PM

Correct me if I''m wrong, but isn''t there some rule that you can only promote a pawn to a gueen if your original queen has been taken? It''s been a while since I played but I remember some rule like that. I don''t know if it applied to other pieces as well (I don''t believe so).

Sander Maréchal
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#27 Moondoggy   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 23 June 2003 - 12:42 AM

quote:
Original post by Sander
Isn''t there some rule that you can only promote a pawn to a gueen if your original queen has been taken?


No I dont think so... but then again I could be wrong also

____________________________
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#28 LordLethis   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 23 June 2003 - 01:02 AM

There is no such rule...
At least I never heard of that one and I do play chess...
For the blitz mode where one sec. blink time is too much: Why not stop the clock while letting the user chose?? However, I want to see you turn a pawn into another piece in one minute blitz mode

#29 Sander   Members   -  Reputation: 1328

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Posted 23 June 2003 - 03:23 AM

quote:
Original post by LordLethis
There is no such rule...
At least I never heard of that one and I do play chess...


AH! That means that my occasional chessparter has been decieving me! Last time I wanted a pawn for a queen and he said I couldn''t because I still had my original queen! Too bad because it I would have had the extra queen I would have beaten him. Now it resulted in a tie grrrrr.....



Sander Maréchal
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#30 Code-Junkie   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 23 June 2003 - 04:51 AM

What you were asking makes sense Sander. If all you have lost is a couple pawns, a rook, and a bishop, how can one of them be transformed into a Queen? Do you just put the rook (or whatever piece you want) on the board and say "it''s a queen", and then try to remember it''s a queen the rest of the game? That doesn''t sound right to me, and I''ve never seen a chess set that came with extra queens just for piece promotion purposes. I''m not a chess expert, but just calling it a queen does not sound logical to me.

#31 Anonymous Poster_Anonymous Poster_*   Guests   -  Reputation:

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Posted 23 June 2003 - 04:54 AM

Just give the player a setup...

#32 Yohumbus   Members   -  Reputation: 152

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Posted 23 June 2003 - 05:14 AM

Why not have the best of both worlds and have serveral smaller pieces in the square and they click on the one they want?

[edited by - Yohumbus on June 23, 2003 12:14:42 PM]

#33 RPGeezus   Members   -  Reputation: 216

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Posted 23 June 2003 - 07:08 AM

quote:
Original post by Code-Junkie
What you were asking makes sense Sander. If all you have lost is a couple pawns, a rook, and a bishop, how can one of them be transformed into a Queen? Do you just put the rook (or whatever piece you want) on the board and say "it''s a queen", and then try to remember it''s a queen the rest of the game? That doesn''t sound right to me, and I''ve never seen a chess set that came with extra queens just for piece promotion purposes. I''m not a chess expert, but just calling it a queen does not sound logical to me.


It is legal to have more than one queen.

If you only have 1 queen piece, use an upside down rook, a penny, or pocket-lint. Whatever works.

Cheers,
Will


#34 Code-Junkie   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 23 June 2003 - 07:13 AM

Thanks for the insight Will. I never knew you could have more than one queen. Still seems a bit odd to me, but the rules are the rules. Once again I learn something new. Thanks.

#35 Jason Doucette   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 23 June 2003 - 08:42 AM

I recommend allowing all options. It will only be an extra 3 possible moves, and since the Queen is worth much more than the other 3 possible pieces, then these moves should be cut off very quickly with the alpha-beta search, especially if you have move-ordering implemented. It will not slow down the search a significant amount. I would suspect that not checking for stalemate would be the best way for a quick speed up if you are looking to remove weird rules that do not happen often (of course, stalemate happens much more often than a promotion to Knight outperforming a Queening move).

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#36 ah_bk88   Members   -  Reputation: 122

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Posted 23 June 2003 - 01:56 PM

I''m sticking with the idea of having the knight and queen morphing back and forth and letting the player click on it to choose. No popups, but no forced decision.

#37 Ferretman   GDNet+   -  Reputation: 276

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Posted 23 June 2003 - 03:52 PM

quote:
Original post by Moondoggy
I think this is an AI specific question, but I will ask it anyway. (feel free to move the post if it is in the wrong forum)

I just want to know: if in a game of chess when you reach the other side of the board with a pawn, is there any specific situation or reason why you would not want to turn the pawn into a queen but another piece?

I want to know because in my program I don’t want to bother with asking the player what piece they want to change into, (more code!) but instead always change into a queen.




Yes it''s got to be rare, but yes I''d always (and I do mean ALWAYS) ask the player what they want. It''s trivial to do and examples have been cited here about situtations where one did in fact want something else.




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#38 haro   Members   -  Reputation: 502

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Posted 23 June 2003 - 04:15 PM

quote:
Original post by LordLethis
There is no such rule...
At least I never heard of that one and I do play chess...
For the blitz mode where one sec. blink time is too much: Why not stop the clock while letting the user chose?? However, I want to see you turn a pawn into another piece in one minute blitz mode


One minute blitz is generally called bullet or lightning and promotion is typical between strong players who do more than just hoping their opponent''s run out of time. Look at bullet games of Roland Schmaltz, Larry Christiansen, etc.. for plenty of examples. Also stopping the clock is not an option. How many hundreds of games I could have saved if I just had a few more seconds to calculate is incalculable.

#39 Raloth   Members   -  Reputation: 379

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Posted 23 June 2003 - 04:18 PM

Yes, definately give the player a choice. I once saw a great AI (or what I thought was). It had like 4 queens against the other guy's single king and went to go get another one... It ended in a stalemate when it would have been a checkmate had it gotten a knight.

[edit] choicee isn't a word

[edited by - Raloth on June 23, 2003 11:20:15 PM]

#40 Bovine Supremacy NOW   Members   -  Reputation: 157

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Posted 23 June 2003 - 04:22 PM

quote:
Original post by Moondoggy
Sneftel - that is what I am asking, is there some really good reason for not choosing a queen, like afterburn said "he traded a pawn for a rook to get checkmate" surely checkmate could then have been achieved with a queen instead of a rook as she has all the moves a rook has and more.




The Queen can't move like a knight, and it is fine to have more than one queen, the knight may be exactly what's neeeded to win.

[Edit]: I meant to say knight and I said rook... when I was reading rook I was thinking knight. oops

Moo moo MOO moo moo


[edited by - Bovine Supremacy NOW on June 24, 2003 8:59:35 AM]




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