The primary reason you don''t see any hugely successful commercial games in java/c#, is that "hugely successful commercial" generally come from companies that already have their dev assets dedicated to ASM, C, C++. There''s no reason to take a risk on c# if you already have the fundamentals done in c++. If you have to build new tools from scatch, maybe. But "saving development time" isn''t as attractive if you''re starting with a stable library that is already 60% on the way to completion.
The argument is really left to garage shops and indie programmers. Groups that have such a microscopic chance of success anyways.
Who is using C# to write games?
quote:
Rick Scott wrote:
Aaaahhhhh, poor baby doesn''t like other opinions? Then leave. Or register a free account and post under it. There are plenty of people that dislike AP posts, and its already been stopped in the Lounge.
No, I really don''t like opinions if they are based on very stupid reasons.
quote:
Rick Scott wrote:
And it wasn''t me that said Java for games is laughable so be careful who you attribute quotes to.
True. I should''ve put names to the quotes in the last post.
I was just pointing to you what got me annoyed.
quote:
Rick Scott wrote:
And even if you are tired of it, what are you gonna do about it? Flame? 1337 sp33k us to death behind your computer screen? Skare.
L337 sp33k? Please quote my "L337 sp33k"??
Umm.. I wasn''t the one who started the flaming, it was started in the first post.
quote:
Telamon wrote:
The idea of using Java for realtime games is laughable.
quote:
Telamon wrote:
To the guy who thought the idea of writing serious games in game isn''t laughable: "Haha." Now I''ve proven my point.
Now it''s your turn: please point me to a commerically successfully blockbuster game that has used Java for something besides tooling. pwned.
Java hasn''t been capable as a serious game programming language for a too long time really, some very important elements came only in the latest versions: 1.3 and 1.4. So the statement that Java is a joke for serious gaming because there are no successfull games yet is just ridiculous. I might as well say that C# isn''t capable for serious gaming because it hasn''t got any blockbusters (yet).
quote:
AP wrote:
The primary reason you don''t see any hugely successful commercial games in java/c#, is that "hugely successful commercial" generally come from companies that already have their dev assets dedicated to ASM, C, C++. There''s no reason to take a risk on c# if you already have the fundamentals done in c++. If you have to build new tools from scatch, maybe. But "saving development time" isn''t as attractive if you''re starting with a stable library that is already 60% on the way to completion.
Very true.
quote:Original post by Anonymous Poster
No, I really don''t like opinions if they are based on very stupid reasons.
I love those posts, at least they have reasons. And a person that bases their opinion on reason is generally open to persuasion.
quote:
L337 sp33k? Please quote my "L337 sp33k"??
Umm.. I wasn''t the one who started the flaming, it was started in the first post.
"Please quote MY 1337 sp33k?" You want me to find an AP that used that language and flamed? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. That''s the whole point.
You sound like an intelligent person, why do you post anon? You get no respect from me (and several others) if you are anonymous. At least register with some made-up info, then you can get credit for an intelligent post when its due.
quote:Original post by Anonymous Poster
does anyone remember when everyone on gamedev was like "F*CK C#, it sucks, its too slow"? my how times change.
Yes but so far everyone who actually seriously tried C# to make some apps has said his productivity doubled/tripled and that he''s looking forward to coding more C#.
Almost nobody tries C# and says ''it sucks i''m going back to C++'' except maybe 13-year olds with a warezed visual studio .net who don''t know what they are doing.
quote:Original post by Fidelio66quote:Original post by Anonymous Poster
does anyone remember when everyone on gamedev was like "F*CK C#, it sucks, its too slow"? my how times change.
Yes but so far everyone who actually seriously tried C# to make some apps has said his productivity doubled/tripled and that he''s looking forward to coding more C#.
Almost nobody tries C# and says ''it sucks i''m going back to C++'' except maybe 13-year olds with a warezed visual studio .net who don''t know what they are doing.
I agree.
Axiom took the OGRE engine, and due to having C# being a more structured OOP language, having great developers working on that project (I believe it was one person that wrote it but others have helped, etc)... now the C# engine is FASTER than the C++ engine.
It''s not because of language, and it''s not because of compilers, libraries, SDK, etc.
It is because the developers decided to build the application properly with planning, and structure it properly. The design and structure of an application is ten times more important than the language used.
quote:Original post by Fidelio66
Yes but so far everyone who actually seriously tried C# to make some apps has said his productivity doubled/tripled and that he''s looking forward to coding more C#.
Almost nobody tries C# and says ''it sucks i''m going back to C++'' except maybe 13-year olds with a warezed visual studio .net who don''t know what they are doing.
My productivity certainly didn''t double, and it definitely didn''t triple. On the other hand, I''ll definitely say I did enjoy not having to mess with separate .cpp/.h files, and built in delegates/properties put my homebrew template-based ones to shame.
Other than that though, I''m still much more productive with C++, but then, liberal use of the STL and boost tend to help with that. I find it amusing that everyone is so concerned with memory errors... ever hear of boost::smart_ptr? how about overloading new/delete with a memory manager (or if you don''t want to, downloading one)? And even before I used those handy tools, only a tiny percentage of bugs were ever memory errors... most of the time it was forgot to call a function, or set a wrong value, or some other logic error. I honestly wish memory errors were as bad as people are making them out to be... cause then I''d have some pretty bug-free code
I''m busy using the VS.Net disassembler to check out the resultant x86 machine code for little experimental programs, sorta as a way to find out what kind of code I should write for best performance (array for loops vs. foreach, pointers vs. array dereference, etc).
1. Array stuff is really poorly optimized (if at all). I can easily optimize this stuff by rewriting code slightly, which is disappointing. At least it inlines the get[] function. It still does bounds-checking no matter what, though.
2. Runtime type checking is ridiculously optimized. Still obviously slower than homogenous arrays/containers, but not as slow as some would have you believe. Good luck making a faster custom way of doing the same thing.
I might write more on this after I mess with more stuff.
1. Array stuff is really poorly optimized (if at all). I can easily optimize this stuff by rewriting code slightly, which is disappointing. At least it inlines the get[] function. It still does bounds-checking no matter what, though.
2. Runtime type checking is ridiculously optimized. Still obviously slower than homogenous arrays/containers, but not as slow as some would have you believe. Good luck making a faster custom way of doing the same thing.
I might write more on this after I mess with more stuff.
Java games?
MMORPG using pure java+mysql+linux:
http://www.javagaming.org/cgi-bin/JGNetForums/YaBB.cgi?board=Announcements;action=display;num=1071648278
http://www.herogame.cn/
MMORPG using pure java+mysql+linux:
http://www.javagaming.org/cgi-bin/JGNetForums/YaBB.cgi?board=Announcements;action=display;num=1071648278
http://www.herogame.cn/
quote:Original post by nuvem
My productivity certainly didn''t double, and it definitely didn''t triple. On the other hand, I''ll definitely say I did enjoy not having to mess with separate .cpp/.h files, and built in delegates/properties put my homebrew template-based ones to shame.
Other than that though, I''m still much more productive with C++, but then, liberal use of the STL and boost tend to help with that. I find it amusing that everyone is so concerned with memory errors... ever hear of boost::smart_ptr? how about overloading new/delete with a memory manager (or if you don''t want to, downloading one)? And even before I used those handy tools, only a tiny percentage of bugs were ever memory errors... most of the time it was forgot to call a function, or set a wrong value, or some other logic error. I honestly wish memory errors were as bad as people are making them out to be... cause then I''d have some pretty bug-free code
My productivity when writing tools has MUCH more then tripled. I had a kick-ass tool made for editing my custom image format the day after I decided to make it. And it had lots of little "extras" that I wouldn''t ever dream of putting in a pure Win32 app.
Also, just because you don''t think you have memory bugs (overloaded new/delete operators don''t catch them all), doesn''t mean you don''t. Unless you are better then most professionals, that is (or working on a very small project), seeing as how games constantly release memory-related bug fixes and patches.
quote:Original post by HenryApe
Well, if you are developing a MMORPG, you may buy a copy of the competitors products to check them out, but you would probably try to avoid buying the whole development system or server setup from the company.
Interesting that you bring up Sony since they went with Java, rather than some Microsoft product, for its scripting in Star Wars Galaxies. You are also not likely to see C# nor Windows anywhere near its PlayStation consoles, and the main reason for that is that Microsoft chose to enter the gaming market too.
<SPAN CLASS=editedby>[edited by - HenryAPe on September 9, 2003 11:32:30 AM]</SPAN>
If you make a comment, be sure, its right, before you post it.
:
http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?host=www.us.playstation.com
http://www.us.playstation.com/
http://www.us.playstation.com/games.aspx
http://www.us.playstation.com/onlinegaming.aspx
http://www.us.playstation.com/events.aspx?id=34
(hint: notice the .aspx ending)
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