Two thing capcommunist said i agree with whole heartedly. Number one, the whole market standpoint. THe other is the family.
Maybe death doesn''t have to be "the end" but it should be something so big and tragic that it has to be feared and kept away from. That is what needs to happen. And then if you have a status like thing, say you are a known murderer/PK and you are killed, then you suffer more than an average person, and say you are a well respected person, then you don''t suffer as bad, and can bring your character back with minimal loss.
Players as monsters in MMORPGs
Capcommunist might be right... but by his logic, gambling should be a monetary failure. It''s not, and niether would this be. A few points to consider:
1. The very system would make death infrequent. Try for a moment to imagine a system where items and monet just don''t pop off of a body when it dies. Where murder and thievery will be acts no longer performed by self-styled adventurers, but by murderers and thieves.
2. You assume that people pay to succeed. The don''t necessarily want that! A system with a greater degree of realism would still be fun to play, because it would still be in a world that is alien and mystical. I''m still playing a person I could never be! The illusion of realism simply reinforces the fantasy.
Many people accuse me of assuming that I know better than the player, when they are doing just that themselves. Pay attention. Just because it''s the way it''s done doesn''t mean it''s the best way. Remember that we are using a dated system that was created for an entirely different style of game... and we''re simply fooling ourselves if we say we''ve got it as good as it could be!
Of course, if you don''t want to create a realistic environment, by all means have scrolls of ressurection.
1. The very system would make death infrequent. Try for a moment to imagine a system where items and monet just don''t pop off of a body when it dies. Where murder and thievery will be acts no longer performed by self-styled adventurers, but by murderers and thieves.
2. You assume that people pay to succeed. The don''t necessarily want that! A system with a greater degree of realism would still be fun to play, because it would still be in a world that is alien and mystical. I''m still playing a person I could never be! The illusion of realism simply reinforces the fantasy.
Many people accuse me of assuming that I know better than the player, when they are doing just that themselves. Pay attention. Just because it''s the way it''s done doesn''t mean it''s the best way. Remember that we are using a dated system that was created for an entirely different style of game... and we''re simply fooling ourselves if we say we''ve got it as good as it could be!
Of course, if you don''t want to create a realistic environment, by all means have scrolls of ressurection.
You seem to be putting realism ahead of fun because you think realism will *be* fun. I live in the real world, and it''s not usually much fun. I Don''t invent new ways of making games more realistic, I invent new ways of making them more fun.
You *could* have a RPG with taxes and credit payments, loans and accountants, but it would suck. So would a game where hundreds of hours of hard work are destroyed in 3 seconds because you forgot to equip your new chestplate. People make mistakes. People let their stupid friends play their games. people misjudge their opposition, and people die. As a game designer you have to accomodate that, or people won''t play your games, and your publisher will never work with you again.
*IF* you''re dead set on permanent character death, at least find a way for the game to continue beyond that point, as opposed to beginning anew. There''s a reason the industry is slowly moving away from the "extra life" mentality. Even games that still have a set number of lives are usually made exceedingly easy, so that even inexperienced gamers can enjoy the product.
Seriously, destroying countless hours of the players hard work is not the way to encourage sales. that''s the bottom line.
You *could* have a RPG with taxes and credit payments, loans and accountants, but it would suck. So would a game where hundreds of hours of hard work are destroyed in 3 seconds because you forgot to equip your new chestplate. People make mistakes. People let their stupid friends play their games. people misjudge their opposition, and people die. As a game designer you have to accomodate that, or people won''t play your games, and your publisher will never work with you again.
*IF* you''re dead set on permanent character death, at least find a way for the game to continue beyond that point, as opposed to beginning anew. There''s a reason the industry is slowly moving away from the "extra life" mentality. Even games that still have a set number of lives are usually made exceedingly easy, so that even inexperienced gamers can enjoy the product.
Seriously, destroying countless hours of the players hard work is not the way to encourage sales. that''s the bottom line.
You ignored my point.
The physical laws of reality do not make reality not fun. If they were to remain in place, but someone allowed you to live as a samurai warlord without consequence for an hour or two, you''d say "right on!"
Those physical laws would change the way the game is played. If you make combat not IDEALISED... if you make it brutal and often deadly... fewer people will engage in combat recklessly. Generally you will only die if you deserve it, took a risk, or were killed by a psychopath. The issue is, it''s completely not worht the psychopath''s time and effort to kill strangers and hence lose HIS character.
Since I think all games are gravitating toward active administrators anyway, it would be a cinch to fix/prevent freak deaths anyway. But charging off to war with a deadly enemy will mean so much more if the enemy is REALLY deadly.
Realism isn''t what''s not fun. It''s our lives that aren''t fun, because of all the crap that we''ve heaped on top of reality. Fantasy settings don''t have that crap, and a lot of people would probably like to hang out in a "better" real world. If death isn''t as common as it is in traditional MMORPGs, you won''t have that problem.
The physical laws of reality do not make reality not fun. If they were to remain in place, but someone allowed you to live as a samurai warlord without consequence for an hour or two, you''d say "right on!"
Those physical laws would change the way the game is played. If you make combat not IDEALISED... if you make it brutal and often deadly... fewer people will engage in combat recklessly. Generally you will only die if you deserve it, took a risk, or were killed by a psychopath. The issue is, it''s completely not worht the psychopath''s time and effort to kill strangers and hence lose HIS character.
Since I think all games are gravitating toward active administrators anyway, it would be a cinch to fix/prevent freak deaths anyway. But charging off to war with a deadly enemy will mean so much more if the enemy is REALLY deadly.
Realism isn''t what''s not fun. It''s our lives that aren''t fun, because of all the crap that we''ve heaped on top of reality. Fantasy settings don''t have that crap, and a lot of people would probably like to hang out in a "better" real world. If death isn''t as common as it is in traditional MMORPGs, you won''t have that problem.
We all know that Landfishian Philosophy has no compliance with marketing.
"The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom." --William Blake
Edited by - Nazrix on July 7, 2000 11:41:58 AM
"The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom." --William Blake
Edited by - Nazrix on July 7, 2000 11:41:58 AM
quote:
But charging off to war with a deadly enemy will mean so much more if the enemy is REALLY deadly.
I like that a lot, and I think that is what I have been trying to express the whole time.
People will think twice about letting their characters be played with by others, they will think twice about charging off against some super powerful wizard. They will actually think about things. So what if the timid players are too scared to go off and kill that big eyed deer in the meadow cuz they are afraid it will kill them.
This will make it so that they will cherish their characters. They will cherish the bonds they form with others. All because it is a real life, and if you die you start over or with some sort of loss or such.
Lots to ponder here, and all very feasible.
I think that the important thing to consider here is that when using permanent death in a game, it's assuming that the game will not be combat-centric.
Not every single player will be loading up on weapons to go slay some monsters. There would be other things in which to partake. Politics, socializing perhaps
...but if a character does choose to go into combat, there would be a hell of a chance the player is taking.
And the player would probably have a good reason for combat...
i.e. revenge, protection, self-defense...not just cause it's fun to see someone's blood splatter
These reasons for combat would induce much more role-playing in the game. You'd be fighting for a reason, and hopefully, the rest of the game would be designed the same way...you'd be doing things in the game for an acutal in-game _reason_
"The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom." --William Blake
Edited by - Nazrix on July 7, 2000 11:54:14 AM
Not every single player will be loading up on weapons to go slay some monsters. There would be other things in which to partake. Politics, socializing perhaps
...but if a character does choose to go into combat, there would be a hell of a chance the player is taking.
And the player would probably have a good reason for combat...
i.e. revenge, protection, self-defense...not just cause it's fun to see someone's blood splatter
These reasons for combat would induce much more role-playing in the game. You'd be fighting for a reason, and hopefully, the rest of the game would be designed the same way...you'd be doing things in the game for an acutal in-game _reason_
"The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom." --William Blake
Edited by - Nazrix on July 7, 2000 11:54:14 AM
Author
How would you treat a character who dies at the hand of another character?
If life is this delicate, who would be adventuring? The game would become a giant 3d (or iso) chat area.
I don''t think permanent death is the answer. If a player loses a character that he has been playing for a extended time period... what will he do next? Create another character? Or, quit playing?
There must be better ways to increase the players awareness that life is precious and should be treated as such.
Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser
If life is this delicate, who would be adventuring? The game would become a giant 3d (or iso) chat area.
I don''t think permanent death is the answer. If a player loses a character that he has been playing for a extended time period... what will he do next? Create another character? Or, quit playing?
There must be better ways to increase the players awareness that life is precious and should be treated as such.
Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser
This leads to a more important question than whether to have permanent death:
Can we think of something better for characters to do besides killing or mundane work (like in UO)?
In the game I envision, the society would take care of this itself.
If the player was killed in cold-blood, then human-controlled players would be hired to avenge the players death perhaps.
or
A human-controlled ruler would dispatch his knights to dispose of the murderer.
Granted that player would still have to create a whole new character, but the killer would probably be killed eventually.
If someone doesn't want to be killed, they would stay in the protection of a city like in real-life.
This leads me back to the original question:
What will the player do while in the confines of the city?
"The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom." --William Blake
Edited by - Nazrix on July 7, 2000 1:04:14 PM
Can we think of something better for characters to do besides killing or mundane work (like in UO)?
quote:
How would you treat a character who dies at the hand of another character?
In the game I envision, the society would take care of this itself.
If the player was killed in cold-blood, then human-controlled players would be hired to avenge the players death perhaps.
or
A human-controlled ruler would dispatch his knights to dispose of the murderer.
Granted that player would still have to create a whole new character, but the killer would probably be killed eventually.
If someone doesn't want to be killed, they would stay in the protection of a city like in real-life.
This leads me back to the original question:
What will the player do while in the confines of the city?
"The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom." --William Blake
Edited by - Nazrix on July 7, 2000 1:04:14 PM
Author
quote:Original post by Dak LozarOriginal post by Dak LozarOriginal post by Nazrix
This leads to a more important question than whether to have permanent death:
Can we think of something better for characters to do besides killing or mundane work (like in UO)?
quote: How would you treat a character who dies at the hand of another character?
quote:
In the game I envision, the society would take care of this itself.
If the player was killed in cold-blood, then human-controlled players would be hired to avenge the players death perhaps.
or
A human-controlled ruler would dispatch his knights to dispose of the murderer.
Granted that player would still have to create a whole new character, but the killer would probably be killed eventually.
If someone doesn''t want to be killed, they would stay in the protection of a city like in real-life.
OK, I got you… sounds good.
Maybe this raises another question
Prisons?? Do they exist?quote:
This leads me back to the original question:
What will the player do while in the confines of the city?
~snip~
Hmmm… what will the player do while in the confines of the city? Hmmm… LOL, that is a good question. What I do now, In UO, is gather food, and other resources that I need and then head back out to the guild house. Not a lot of my time is spent in the city. I suspect this isn''t true for a lot of people. In fact there is a guild that hangs out next to the East Bank in Britain on GL. They spar and chat… not sure what else they do.. but it appears that they are having fun
Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser
Edited by - Dak Lozar on July 7, 2000 1:13:33 PM
Fixing nested quote errors
This topic is closed to new replies.
Advertisement
Popular Topics
Advertisement
