If a block stops the attack ... and a parry stops the attack AND gives the player a timing advantage over his opponent .... then why would anyone ever choose to block?

You may as well just eliminate blocking unless each option has their own strengths and weaknesses.

The difference between block and parry is that typically a block is a lower line of defense... You typically have a parry attempt THEN a block attempt if the parry fails...

Against multiple opponents, it may be preferable to block, since a good parry requires an investments be made in one adversary. It you''re fighting two or more guys, getting into a serious phrase with one may be foolish.

Please, get the terminology right!

Blocking is the act of putting something, such as a shield, between the incoming weapon and the intended target.
Parrying is the act of diverting the incoming weapon off its intended trajectory.

Example 1: Someone fires a pistol at me, but I manage to raise my riot shield right before she pulls the trigger. I have blocked the bullet.

Example 2: I am a Jedi(tm) knight. Someone fires a blaster at me, but I use my lightsaber to bounce it right back at him. I have parried the beam.

As far as gameplay is concerned, the primary distinction is that blocking is a "passive" action, and can stop multiple attacks at once, whereas parrying is an "active" action, and any given parry can only stop one attack.

EDIT: (for the sake of completeness)
Dodging (also known as evading) is when the intended target moves out of the weapon's path.

Mind you, these are just the defensive maneuvers that prevent damage.

[edited by - Anthony Serrano on December 21, 2003 8:17:59 AM]

So much to type where should I begin?
So I could start by this.

quote: Computer solutions have included more variables, higher resolution in randomness, and extra modifiers. Each of these developments has served to complicate the mathematical computations and multiply the possible outcomes. This is good, and couldn''t be done without computers (See Helios''s Cows). But things like Armor Class, HP, and item-based stats continue to be anachronistic.

I remmember to optimize combat in PnP to have not so tedious rolling and to have equations stay exactly same. It might turn that it could be made more difficult again when special cases would appear.

In computer games there isn''t richness of widely used proper combat systems. Majority of them are based on junior highshool equations. You could look if they are using calculations "how much is that event in 100 cases" it''s offten 17/19 and you need that precission.

So when you are wielded by gloves of giant strength +2 your strength is increased by two fold. What do you have againts item based stats?
Armor class is an abstraction. If you''d like to do calculation differently it would have 200x more computing difficulty. I''m not sure if computers are that fast.
Hp? You lose one and lose hand. You append hand and regenerate it and you''d gain one Hp and a shock from temporaly losing hand, bleedning, and simillar until regeneration properly kick in. I hope you are not mistaking Hp with stamina.

quote: Fallout had all kinds of target zones. You could break limbs or blind other characters, and although I never really had one do it to me, the status screen seemed to indicate a possibility of such crippling blows being dealth to the player as well.

Fallout was supposed to be based on GURPS, thought designers decided to build rather its own model based on GURPS. You didn''t obviously played in enough dangerous style, or as demonspa... Advanced bounty hunters were pretty skilled to try such shot. Critical hit from a minigun was nasty too. It was one of features that made Fallout famous, but GURPS alows to go in better detail. Were they scared or lazy?

quote:
Think of how an actual fight between two swordsmen of matched caliber might go. They close, one initiates an attack, the other has a choice to dodge, block, pre-empt, or do any number of other things. Beat attacks, distance parries, blade parries, etc. are all available to a trained swordsman, so the average straight attack is generally unsuccessful, but can be used to facilitate a more successful attack combination, or else used to kill puppies and much slower opponents. I myself have received blurringly fast straight attack to the noggin as a saber fencer, and know that it works, but generally it only works once.

In medieval periode there were two schools that tried to discover with one is better. They had duel- few were choosen from one school x few were choosen from second school. We will never know with one is better. Master of one school decided to fight too and choosed he would start. We will not know what school was better, becose he was standing at the end.

Or we could look at Spain in medieval age.: One of two fighters would decide to attack and either, he''d win, or he will be in severe danger of being hit. These oversimplified examples doesn''t matter, becose fantasy isn''t about medieval. Majority of fantasy settings is significantly more advanced, and both fighters are using magic.

Gotcha. You newer seen real fight. Fencing tournaments and medieval like shows don''t count. Some heroes are more than able to rebound arrow that hit theirs eye and do that without blinking. Do you remmember DragonBallz? You seem forgeting that they are heroes, they are using magic even when fighting with swords. And heroes are able attack each other both at same time.

To Ingenu

quote:
I''ll never say enough how stupid it is to use Pen & Paper RPG rules in a computer game. Those rules were made for easiness, so that every player around the table can compute the results and everything goes smooth.
Computer can do much more complex things, just like you don''t simulate physics in a P&P RPG, but computer games do...

I would rather say, it''s silly to use rules from PnP without thinking. I know people that claims RPGs helped them with a Math becose they learned to count quickly, guess and even do complex equations. Like: you have numbers 0..10 How many numbers? -1-10 = 11 If you look into monster manual you could find this equation x*x^2 = x^3
Majority of Computer games used combat rules from RPGs only in basic version. I think it was becose developers were scared of compexity, and didn''t have experience with developing RPGs. It might be interesting how could look gameplay of BG2 if combat would have more depth and BG2 didn''t happened on predrawed maps.
RPGs by deffinition should rely on character, not on input device. To by able to finish at least 1/3 game by roleplaying is much better than be able to finish 1/4 game by buying better gamepad. And then being stuck becose developer didn''t believe in 50 hours games.


***
As far I remmember this post started as an post after eating up a Turkey. It''s dangerous to eat that thing, it could jump over 5 pages. ~_^

I wouldn''t recomment however to slip in the discusion into: "How we would employ player fingers". It''s more about doing repetitive things and let them not be annoying. You know there were already abstracted things like food, water (remmember realms of Arcania?), sleeping (in some games), weight of equipment, complex NPC interaction, and so on. The list could be probably long and interesting, becose it could be a part of the problem. Deadly combat could be repetitive, but you would like to have some chance to avert biggest problems with it. Auto combat where you''d be stonned at the end wouldn''t be nice surprise. Cockatrice could be weak, but still.
One of possible solutions for repettitive combat is to have more detailed enviroment. So no such simple map as in FF5 and more interactive enviroment than just a Morrowind.

thanx Anthony Serrano, nice clarification.

Raghar, I''m not sure I understood your post, but I''ll try to respond to the part that concerns my ideas.

quote:In computer games there isn''t richness of widely used proper combat systems. Majority of them are based on junior highshool equations.

Sure, they aren''t differential equations, but the number of factors and the number of equations being calculated for each combat turn would be time-consuming if it had to be done without a serial processor. I''m not saying all game designers are engineers or mathematicians, I''m just pointing out that computers open doors to them.

quote:Hp? You lose one and lose hand. You append hand and regenerate it and you''d gain one Hp and a shock from temporaly losing hand, bleedning, and simillar until regeneration properly kick in. I hope you are not mistaking Hp with stamina.

What? One hit point is your hand? I''m not familiar with the system you''re alluding to. And what is the difference between HP and stamina? They''re both abstract numbers, the only thing that sets them apart is the equations into which they are factored. For the sake of clarity, please define the difference for me.

quote:In medieval periode there were two schools that tried to discover with one is better. They had duel- few were choosen from one school x few were choosen from second school. We will never know with one is better. Master of one school decided to fight too and choosed he would start. We will not know what school was better, becose he was standing at the end.
Or we could look at Spain in medieval age.: One of two fighters would decide to attack and either, he''d win, or he will be in severe danger of being hit.

This is largely incoherent, but I assume you''re referring to the period after the 14th-century advent of man-portable firearms during which large, broad-bladed swords were supplanted by the estoc and its descendents. Usually heavy, with long reach (six feet or more sometimes), pointy blades and poor balance, duels with such weapons generally went to the man who struck first. Later stylistic developments, such as the parry, favored shorter, faster, better balanced weapons, like the French rapier.

quote:These oversimplified examples doesn''t matter, becose fantasy isn''t about medieval. Majority of fantasy settings is significantly more advanced, and both fighters are using magic.

First, define "significantly more advanced". If you mean all the crap they steal from Hollywood and Hong Kong action flicks, fine. But that''s mostly cosmetic content. It''s not a matter of game design, it''s a matter of graphics and animation. Same thing with magic. Magic is just a few different types of attacks and defenses, with the ability to place modifiers on existing variable. Back to the discussion of computers, neither of these pose a real challenge to the hardware.

quote:Gotcha. You newer seen real fight. Fencing tournaments and medieval like shows don''t count.

First off, I don''t know what kind of sword-weilding household you grew up in, but competitive fencing and medieval re-enactments are all I ever had. I was a passable fencer in the IFA (with a saber), though not great, and dabbled a little in epee, foil, and some very informal kendo with a member of my team. I enjoy medieval faires and History Channel specials as much as the next guy, though I''ve never been affiliated with the SCA. I once had a brown belt in Goshin Jutsu Karate, and have had police training in hand-to-hand defensive tactics, pistolcraft and shotgun operation. I''ve read a handful of seminal texts on combat, most notably Miyamoto Musashi''s "A Book of Five Rings", Sun Tsu''s "The Art of War", and Morihei Ueshiba''s "The Art of Peace", and like to think that I have a fair grasp on the nature of physical conflict between human beings.

quote:Some heroes are more than able to rebound arrow that hit theirs eye and do that without blinking. Do you remmember DragonBallz? You seem forgeting that they are heroes, they are using magic even when fighting with swords. And heroes are able attack each other both at same time.

Besides the fact that this statement is wholly incongruous with the rest of your argument, what sort of person could take an arrow in the eye without blinking? Your DBZ example is a poor one, since the supernatural nature of those characters was a major premise of the metaphysic of the universe. In a different context, it is patently absurd.

I''m looking for a way to represent combat, not exciting new ways for people to fight each other. If I could find a satisfactory method by which to emulate two drunks trying to knock out the other guy''s teeth, without using HP or making them stand in a ring, I''d be pleased. From that foundation, I could factor in weapons, magic, and sensu beans.

//Note to next posts: finishing post that you started few days before is bad for readibility.

quote:Original post by Iron Chef Carnage

quote:Hp? You lose one and lose hand. You append hand and regenerate it and you'd gain one Hp and a shock from temporaly losing hand, bleedning, and simillar until regeneration properly kick in. I hope you are not mistaking Hp with stamina.

What? One hit point is your hand? I'm not familiar with the system you're alluding to. And what is the difference between HP and stamina? They're both abstract numbers, the only thing that sets them apart is the equations into which they are factored. For the sake of clarity, please define the difference for me.

In almuric it was Lp. And hit dragon for one Lp even when dragon had more than 40 was awsome task.

You could find other examples even in ADnD. I remmember some nice critical rolls when legs flied off and so on.

HP in computer games was simple abstraction of person health. This means amount of wounds and theirs severity that person received. I remmember games where this was used for each arm and other parts of body. I didn't find them much better, however.
Stamina was measure of tireness and it was used fairly differetly. Sometimes as pay per action system with additing points each turn. Sometimes as and action up to stamina system with max level of stamina based on health and previous action. In second case deadliest actions wasn't possible at start of the combat.

quote:
This is largely incoherent,

I reffered to various styles and differences between personalities of combatnants. Style and personality affects combat nearly as much as a weapon. If you'd like to implement some type of reasonable combat system, you should add this into.

quote:

quote:These oversimplified examples doesn't matter, becose fantasy isn't about medieval. Majority of fantasy settings is significantly more advanced, and both fighters are using magic.

First, define "significantly more advanced". If you mean all the crap they steal from Hollywood and Hong Kong action flicks, fine. But that's mostly cosmetic content. It's not a matter of game design, it's a matter of graphics and animation. Same thing with magic. Magic is just a few different types of attacks and defenses, with the ability to place modifiers on existing variable. Back to the discussion of computers, neither of these pose a real challenge to the hardware.

For example majority of persons in fantasy setings were litereate. Actually all, and that is much higher amount than in advanced countries, or in US. Persons in fantasy were independent on goverment and have strong opinion about it. They and theirs goverment were ulikely to step on each other toes willingly or ever. Structure of society was much more effective than is now. (and when thieves guild would like to be the one without any moral it's hard to be fucking bastard becose they would take it as steping into theirs teritory and kill you quickly, or turn into the stone statue) This however implies also ability to use better combat tactic and higher skills of fighters. Compare it to Medieval where knowledge of all dirty practice in combat was offten suficient. I didn't mean that no person from fantasy settings would use dirty practice, I mean they would use skill too.

Using magic would change all persons. No hero is representative of it's xxx if xxx is even definable. Heroes are always exceptional. Otherwise you would have RPG with story without a character.

quote:

quote:Gotcha.

seminal texts on combat, most notably Miyamoto Musashi's "A Book of Five Rings", Sun Tsu's "The Art of War", and Morihei Ueshiba's "The Art of Peace", and like to think that I have a fair grasp on the nature of physical conflict between human beings.

I ment it half seriously, but smilie somewhat fell out.
Is Ueshiba book freely avilable on the Internet?

quote:

quote:Some heroes are more than able to rebound arrow that hit theirs eye and do that without blinking. Do you remmember DragonBallz? You seem forgeting that they are heroes, they are using magic even when fighting with swords. And heroes are able attack each other both at same time.

Besides the fact that this statement is wholly incongruous with the rest of your argument, what sort of person could take an arrow in the eye without blinking? Your DBZ example is a poor one, since the supernatural nature of those characters was a major premise of the metaphysic of the universe. In a different context, it is patently absurd.

Most? It's nice question... Is possible for arrow to hit a person, into the eye, without being able to blink? ~_^ You might have different persons in the combat, so artifical restriction on just a common person TM is useless.
If we will consider FF7 hero as an example he might be able to do so.

quote:
I'm looking for a way to represent combat, not exciting new ways for people to fight each other. If I could find a satisfactory method by which to emulate two drunks trying to knock out the other guy's teeth, without using HP or making them stand in a ring, I'd be pleased. From that foundation, I could factor in weapons, magic, and sensu beans.

From my experience it's better to start with more complex system then modify it depends on experience with the system, than start with a simple system and force features into it.

That two drunk person example wasn't simple one. Drunks are often unpredicable and could lose balance at anytime. It would be bad start with this as a combat simulation. (too much artifical enviroment effects for example)

I, for example, would rather like to have combat with a lots of AI inside. But of course fast combat would mean that some strikes would be very badly visible. Thus fast combat would result in high level of abstraction anyway. Probably best way would be to at the start of the turn try to define actions that would be attempted and then have move all characters at same time.


[edited by - Raghar on December 22, 2003 5:46:37 PM]