Quake 3 had lots of story!
It was about the epic struggle of man deciding between the shotgun or the railgun.
Nothing wrong with a good story.
LMAO 
ACtually, there was a short paragraph in the Doom games, I think it would be called flavor text rather than actual *story*.
Now I would agree though, that quake can offer some pretty dramatic moments of tension ...
"Am I going to make it to the next big health pack", or this famous scene where your comrade is trying to cross the field towards the enemy base, and get shot by a sniper. Then the doc try to rescue him and get shot as well, and the crying ... ooh the crying... or was that Full Metal JAcket ... mmm... OK.
To camp or not to camp, that is the question.
ACtually, there was a short paragraph in the Doom games, I think it would be called flavor text rather than actual *story*.
Now I would agree though, that quake can offer some pretty dramatic moments of tension ...
"Am I going to make it to the next big health pack", or this famous scene where your comrade is trying to cross the field towards the enemy base, and get shot by a sniper. Then the doc try to rescue him and get shot as well, and the crying ... ooh the crying... or was that Full Metal JAcket ... mmm... OK.
To camp or not to camp, that is the question.
quote:Original post by ahw
LMAO
To camp or not to camp, that is the question.
Hahaha! "Whether tis'' nobler in the mind to get a headshot, or to suffer the rockets of outrageous fortune!!!!"
I''ve heard it said that the stuff that you do in a game may make for story, but it''s rarely a very interesting story. ("Then I went to the Catacombs, but Bugsy died, so she had to restart in town. Then Cuddles PKed her for no reason. Then I got health...")
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Just waiting for the mothership...
Author
quote:How can you say this? This is completely illogical. Every choice you make in these story-less games changes the game. Therefore they are meaningful within the context of the game as a system.
Great, I''d be doing something meaningful in an abstract and meaningless system. Plus, it''s not even true that what you do in Quake and Tetris change the game. Kill some person in Quake and they respawn seconds later. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING has changed in any significant way. Score a couple rows in Tetris and what happens? The blocks just keep on falling EXACTLY like they did before. Wow, that''s meaningful for sure...
I''m going to make a wild guess here and say that you''re extremely intrigued with the upcoming game Black and White? It seems to be just along the lines of what you want. Perhaps The Sims as well? Both these games exemplify what you seem to think is needed in games. To be honest though, I find The Sims quite boring and I''m really not terribly interested in Black and White. Fallout 3 though? Can''t wait.
quote:Finally, I''ll charge you with answering the reverse of #2: Don''t rely on slippery, entirely subjective notions of what is and is not fun. What''s fun about taking away choice from the player in a game? (I suspect it''s more fun for the writer than it is for the player, btw.)
I don''t think I''ve ever said that a game with a story has to be linear or take any choice away from the player. In fact, I think games with stories are the only medium in which any choice can be given to the player at all. Like I pointed out above, how much choice does it take to mindlessly blast something in quake or score yet another row in Tetris? None. This sort of game is inherently devoid of choice.
With a story though it becomes an entirely different matter. You are presented with the choice between saving your wife or preventing the destruction of a city. What do you do? Now that has meaning. That sort of choice can be made to affect the rest of the game. I will agree, though, that this sort of choice must be central to the development of such a game. Stories need to revolve around this kind of "nodal" point (to borrow a word from William Gibson). You choose to save your wife, and the city is wiped off the face of the planet. I''m sure it''s obvious how this can impact the rest of the game.
quote:Here''s the crux of our difference: You seem to have no problem with a game that would play like a David Brin or Ian Banks novel but as a result give you little say in guiding your experience. This to me would be anathema. Without substantial choice, this would not be a game, and shouldn''t bother to call itself such. Electronic story with ocassional mouse clicking would be more appropriate.
No, that''s not entirely true. I''d like to see a game that plays through like a David Brin or Ian Banks novel, but remains completely interactive and impacted by the actions of the player. This requires what seems to me to be a whole new form of writing--perhaps it could just be called non-linear writing--where the bulk of the narrative work lies on these nodal points where the story changes and the interaction between them.
Combine this with fun and engaging game mechanics and it seems to me you have the best of both worlds. Obviously though, the mechanics would have to be tightly linked with the narrative in order to not seem out of place.
I''m not sure if I''m making any sense here...
Wavinator : you jsut reminded me of a serie of comic books called "Chroniques de la Lune Noire" (chronicles of the Black Moon) that is entirely (as far as I know), based on a campaign (that is, a serie of several scenarios, all linked) of AD&D.
ERrrr, how can I put that simply ... it''s the perfect example of what powermaxing is, it''s "dungeonesque" to the bone, oooh the pain. If you judge it on a literrary point of view, it''s not very interesting (jsut like you described), but if you see it as a scenario of RPG, then it really whoops llamas a$s
Actually they even made a RTS of it...
Just to say that you can make a ''correct'' story out of a crap game (I don''t have a really high opinion of the AD&D system, so I am totally biased).
youpla :-P
ERrrr, how can I put that simply ... it''s the perfect example of what powermaxing is, it''s "dungeonesque" to the bone, oooh the pain. If you judge it on a literrary point of view, it''s not very interesting (jsut like you described), but if you see it as a scenario of RPG, then it really whoops llamas a$s
Actually they even made a RTS of it...
Just to say that you can make a ''correct'' story out of a crap game (I don''t have a really high opinion of the AD&D system, so I am totally biased).
youpla :-P
quote:Original post by Shinkage
Great, I''d be doing something meaningful in an abstract and meaningless system. Plus, it''s not even true that what you do in Quake and Tetris change the game. Kill some person in Quake and they respawn seconds later. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING has changed in any significant way. Score a couple rows in Tetris and what happens? The blocks just keep on falling EXACTLY like they did before. Wow, that''s meaningful for sure...
I''m not talking Sophia''s Choice or saving the universe!!! You''re focusing on capital ''M'' meaning again, Shrinkage.
Your choices are meaningful because they change a system of interacting parts (which is the core of a game). Tetris: Wait for the L block? Where to put the T block? Can you move the I block over in time?
Quake: Dodge? Direct attack? Jump? Turn? Anyone behind? Go for the superhealth? Railgun or rocket launcher? Stay or go?
Can you see that you have a wealth of choices here? This is what a game is! A restrained narrative can not now, nor will it anytime soon, provide these choices.
quote:
I''m going to make a wild guess here and say that you''re extremely intrigued with the upcoming game Black and White? It seems to be just along the lines of what you want. Perhaps The Sims as well?
Bzzzzzzt! "I''m sorry, thanks for playing. But as a parting gift, we have this lovely consolation prize: A sample from Wavinator''s game library, including Unreal! Starcraft! Alpha Centauri! And one of those rare nonfantasy RPGs, the awesome Fallout 1 & 2!!!!!"
quote:
Both these games exemplify what you seem to think is needed in games.
What?!?!? Explain this, pls!
quote:
To be honest though, I find The Sims quite boring and I''m really not terribly interested in Black and White.
Fallout 3 though? Can''t wait.
Uh, we agree here, so where the heck are we still disagreeing?
quote:
In fact, I think games with stories are the only medium in which any choice can be given to the player at all. Like I pointed out above, how much choice does it take to mindlessly blast something in quake or score yet another row in Tetris?
Haven''t checked those links, eh? Waddarya afraid of?
Here''s Greg Costikyan:
"What does a player do in any game? Some things depend on the medium. In some games, he rolls dice. In some games, he chats with his friends. In some games, he whacks at a keyboard. But in every game, he makes decisions.
At every point, he considers the game state. That might be what he sees on the screen. Or it might be what the gamemaster has just told him. Or it might be the arrangement on the pieces on the board. Then, he considers his objectives, and the game tokens and resources available to him. And he considers his opposition, the forces he must struggle against. He tries to decide on the best course of action.
And he makes a decision."
The choice/decision is valuable and valid within the context of the game as a system of interacting, changing parts. It''s a game because the player can change things.
Here''s Costikyan again on why games aren''t stories:
"Again and again, we hear about story. Interactive literature. Creating a story through roleplay. The idea that games have something to do with stories has such a hold on designers'' imagination that it probably can''t be expunged. It deserves at least to be challenged.
Stories are inherently linear. However much characters may agonize over the decisions they make, they make them the same way every time we reread the story, and the outcome is always the same. Indeed, this is a strength; the author chose precisely those characters, those events, those decisions, and that outcome, because it made for the strongest story. If the characters did something else, the story wouldn''t be as interesting.
Games are inherently non-linear. They depend on decision making. Decisions have to pose real, plausible alternatives, or they aren''t real decisions. It must be entirely reasonable for a player to make a decision one way in one game, and a different way in the next. To the degree that you make a game more like a story -- more linear, fewer real options -- you make it less like a game."
quote:
With a story though it becomes an entirely different matter. You are presented with the choice between saving your wife or preventing the destruction of a city. What do you do? Now that has meaning.
No it doesn''t. Not anymore than does getting a headshot in Unreal. Both are, as you said earlier, "pushing pixels around."
...that is, unless you''re willing to concede that meaning only exists in the context of the game as a system. Then saving your wife has meaning, because it changes the game. It alters the game as a system. (And so too does getting the sniper rifle in Unreal.)
quote:
I''d like to see a game that plays through like a David Brin or Ian Banks novel, but remains completely interactive and impacted by the actions of the player. This requires what seems to me to be a whole new form of writing--perhaps it could just be called non-linear writing--where the bulk of the narrative work lies on these nodal points where the story changes and the interaction between them.
Okay, do you really understand from a technical standpoint what you''re asking for? Do you understand the plot branching problem? Depending on your branches and nodes you end up with an exponential number of plotlines to write!
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Just waiting for the mothership...
Author
First off, yes, I'm am aware that designing the kind of game I would most like to see is, for all intents and purposes, impossible. That doesn't mean it can't be my "ideal" game.
Ok, now, you say that games such as Quake and Tetris give you a plethora of choices, such as what move to use, or where to put a block. What I don't understand, is why you think these choices can't exist just as meaningfully within the context of a narrative? They do not seem to be in any way mutually exclusive things. You're talking about how the actual mechanics of the game play out and I'm talking about the broad direction the game goes in. There is no reason a game can not play through an epic story line and not provide the EXACT same gameplay mechanics you are evangelizing. Just think of the actual story as a sort of layer on top of the gameplay mechanics, and not something that is or should be manipulated by what you do in the game. I don't know if this makes sense...
I concede that meaning in games is in terms of the gameplay system. I suppose getting a sniper rifle can constitute a "meaningful" action in the system of Unreal. The extent of that meaning, however, is very limited. What happens when you die? Everything goes back to the way you started and the game goes on just as it has since it started. Very little actually changes significantly in the long term. It does, however, have short term meaning. Perhaps this is a very important distinction--short term vs. long term meaning.
You keep on referring me to those links like if I read them I would be speaking and thinking differently. I did not read completely through all of them, but the simple fact is that I simply did not agree with what what they said. Just because they're there doesn't mean I have to take them as truth or in any way integrate them into my views on the subject if I disagree with them.
Just noticed, my handle is S H I N K A G E not S H R I N K A G E. Please
Edited by - Shinkage on September 26, 2000 5:37:38 PM
Ok, now, you say that games such as Quake and Tetris give you a plethora of choices, such as what move to use, or where to put a block. What I don't understand, is why you think these choices can't exist just as meaningfully within the context of a narrative? They do not seem to be in any way mutually exclusive things. You're talking about how the actual mechanics of the game play out and I'm talking about the broad direction the game goes in. There is no reason a game can not play through an epic story line and not provide the EXACT same gameplay mechanics you are evangelizing. Just think of the actual story as a sort of layer on top of the gameplay mechanics, and not something that is or should be manipulated by what you do in the game. I don't know if this makes sense...
I concede that meaning in games is in terms of the gameplay system. I suppose getting a sniper rifle can constitute a "meaningful" action in the system of Unreal. The extent of that meaning, however, is very limited. What happens when you die? Everything goes back to the way you started and the game goes on just as it has since it started. Very little actually changes significantly in the long term. It does, however, have short term meaning. Perhaps this is a very important distinction--short term vs. long term meaning.
You keep on referring me to those links like if I read them I would be speaking and thinking differently. I did not read completely through all of them, but the simple fact is that I simply did not agree with what what they said. Just because they're there doesn't mean I have to take them as truth or in any way integrate them into my views on the subject if I disagree with them.
Just noticed, my handle is S H I N K A G E not S H R I N K A G E. Please
Edited by - Shinkage on September 26, 2000 5:37:38 PM
Shinkage (True Shadow, I believe?) is right. There was a Tetris Plus released for the playstation, and though it sucked, it had a narrative worked in.
The Marathon series from bungie was a rather plot-rich FPS. The nature of these games does not preclude narrative by any means. The only obstcale to improvement by the presence of a narrative is the poor quality of game writing, which has pretty much always been there.
The Marathon series from bungie was a rather plot-rich FPS. The nature of these games does not preclude narrative by any means. The only obstcale to improvement by the presence of a narrative is the poor quality of game writing, which has pretty much always been there.
Author
Yes Landfish, yes! This makes me happy
PS Heh, let's see if I can get this right the second time. Shinkage, in the context from which I get it, can mean New Shadow or True Shadow I believe. If you're interested in that context, e-mail me so we don't clutter this up with uselessness
Edited by - Shinkage on September 26, 2000 11:54:04 PM
PS Heh, let's see if I can get this right the second time. Shinkage, in the context from which I get it, can mean New Shadow or True Shadow I believe. If you're interested in that context, e-mail me so we don't clutter this up with uselessness
Edited by - Shinkage on September 26, 2000 11:54:04 PM
So what are you saying, on what level & to what depth do you want this linear story?
Do you want the player not to be a participant in this story, just watching it, in this case what sort of gameplay do you envisage?
What would be the point of putting a sort of story to tetris, how would this be shown? What would you have Cut Scenes showing fighting blocks? You would need a password system anyway, so that people could continue the story from last bookmark.
(BTW Black & White does share elements with Fallout, ie. it has little moral scruple / quests that you find ie. a farmer prays to you for help because the starving villagers are stealing his pigs! So do you punish the farmer for being greedy, let the villagers get away with it- thus encouraging thieving!, ignore the situation, kill them all etc. and all via direct interaction! Also depending on whether you are a good / bad god, you have to eventually defeat a god which has the opposite scruples to you ie. bad/ good, talk about personalisation of story / gameplay.It looks to be a very good game.)
There is a guy in the South village called Tony, he's a Ninja.
Do you want the player not to be a participant in this story, just watching it, in this case what sort of gameplay do you envisage?
What would be the point of putting a sort of story to tetris, how would this be shown? What would you have Cut Scenes showing fighting blocks? You would need a password system anyway, so that people could continue the story from last bookmark
.(BTW Black & White does share elements with Fallout, ie. it has little moral scruple / quests that you find ie. a farmer prays to you for help because the starving villagers are stealing his pigs! So do you punish the farmer for being greedy, let the villagers get away with it- thus encouraging thieving!, ignore the situation, kill them all etc. and all via direct interaction! Also depending on whether you are a good / bad god, you have to eventually defeat a god which has the opposite scruples to you ie. bad/ good, talk about personalisation of story / gameplay.It looks to be a very good game.)
There is a guy in the South village called Tony, he's a Ninja.
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