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Ultimate Frisbee - Laying out


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#1 load_bitmap_file   Members   -  Reputation: 826

Posted 16 September 2006 - 05:20 PM

(This thread assumes you know what a layout is in ultimate frisbee) My friend has been trying to get me to layout for ultimate frisbee but I have a mental block when trying to do it. Whenever I go and dive my brain automatically sends a signal to my arms or legs to move down and try to cushion the landing when I'm supposed to be lying out flat in mid-air. This is a problem. Does anyone have any suggestions on mental conditioning to successfully perform a layout? Also, said friend claims that lying out flat will actually absorb the force of impact better lying out than cushioned with arms or legs. I figure if it's instinctual to stick out your arms or legs when falling like this, that can't be right. Is this true? If it is, I ought to be able to bypass the mental barrier much easier.

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#2 Katta   Members   -  Reputation: 560

Posted 16 September 2006 - 05:32 PM

I find that, in the heat of the moment, you don't notice much. If you're out 'practicing', yeah, it's going to hurt. That's because you're thinking about it too much. When playing the game you just 'do it', without thinking. Then there is very little pain.

For me anyway. Your post signifies that you are indeed, thinking about it too much.

#3 Sean T. McBeth   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1406

Posted 16 September 2006 - 06:06 PM

This is what my sister has to say on the subject
Quote:
Original post by capn_midnight's sister
I'm in my second year of playing Ultimate for my college team ... so although not quite an expert, I do have some experience on this issue. And I love to lay out.
If we're talking about properly falling from a standing position, generally stretching yourself out is not a good idea. Ideally, you'd want to go for more of a tuck-and-roll position. However, once you have begun the falling-and-catching motion, it's sink or swim. Pulling in your arms at this point will cause your elbows to drive into your ribs upon impact with the ground, which can be quite painful. Stretching yourself out and hitting the ground will still hurt a bit (depending on how hard the ground is at the time), but much less than having your own bones shoved into yourself.
My team did a really helpful exercise last spring to help work on layout form:
Place a disc on the ground in front of you, about a foot or two outside of your full reach (like if you laid down on the ground and stretched one arm, how far you could reach). Go down on one knee--if you're right handed, be on your right knee, etc. You can have your shoulders square with the disc, or you can be in more of a profile (if you're on your right knee, you'd have your left shoulder closest to the disc). Then, push off and forward with your left leg, twisting your body and reaching with your right arm for the disc. You should land on your right side if you're not completely uncoordinated. Try to grab the disc off the ground in this way.
This is a great way to accomplish three things:
1. Get your body used to the leaping and twisting of layouts without worrying about falling from any kind of height
2. Get used to feeling the impact of the ground on your body. It's sort of like swimming in cold water.
3. Get a feeling for your full reach.
The first couple of times you do it, it will feel awkward. You just have to keep doing it and not worrying about how it will turn out. As the form starts to feel more natural, progress to a crouching position so that your knees are both off the ground. Then stand up completely.
Usually, in a game situation, you don't have time to think about laying out. You don't have time to think about whether or not you should/have to lay out, or how you're going to do it. You just do it. This comes from practice: knowing how far you can reach, and feeling confident that you can land on the ground and that it won't hurt that much.
Muddy days are great days to practice laying out with your buddies. Also, I usually feel better about laying out when I'm wearing pants and long sleeves. The ground doesn't really hurt that much, it's the grass burn!
You may be worried about getting hurt right now, but just keep building yourself up slowly. You'll realize that it doesn't really hurt that much. And believe me, the first time you make a sprinting, full layout and catch it, you'll realize that that little bit of pain is completely worth it. And you'll be hooked. :)
Good luck!


#4 Mage2k   Members   -  Reputation: 336

Posted 16 September 2006 - 06:49 PM

Quote:
Original post by load_bitmap_file
Also, said friend claims that lying out flat will actually absorb the force of impact better lying out than cushioned with arms or legs. I figure if it's instinctual to stick out your arms or legs when falling like this, that can't be right. Is this true? If it is, I ought to be able to bypass the mental barrier much easier.
Actually, that instinct brace the landing at the end of a fall with your arms is not a good thing, people break arms like that quite often. Proper landings usually involve trying to land on your side or back and rolling as best you can at impact. Of course, that form is the opposite of what's needed for a layout, but at least convince yourself that the broken arm that could be the result of using your arms when landing will hurt worse that taking the hit to your body.



#5 load_bitmap_file   Members   -  Reputation: 826

Posted 17 September 2006 - 04:34 AM

Quote:
Original post by Katta
I find that, in the heat of the moment, you don't notice much. If you're out 'practicing', yeah, it's going to hurt. That's because you're thinking about it too much. When playing the game you just 'do it', without thinking. Then there is very little pain.

For me anyway. Your post signifies that you are indeed, thinking about it too much.


I've thought this myself at first, but come game time there have been instances where I certainly could have done a layout but still couldn't force myself to do it.

Quote:
Original post by capn_midnight
This is what my sister has to say on the subject
Quote:
Original post by capn_midnight's sister
*snipped useful advice*


Sounds like a great exercise! [smile] Proceeding in steps sounds a lot more doable than just plunging in.

Quote:
Original post by Mage2k
Quote:
Original post by load_bitmap_file
Also, said friend claims that lying out flat will actually absorb the force of impact better lying out than cushioned with arms or legs. I figure if it's instinctual to stick out your arms or legs when falling like this, that can't be right. Is this true? If it is, I ought to be able to bypass the mental barrier much easier.
Actually, that instinct brace the landing at the end of a fall with your arms is not a good thing, people break arms like that quite often. Proper landings usually involve trying to land on your side or back and rolling as best you can at impact. Of course, that form is the opposite of what's needed for a layout, but at least convince yourself that the broken arm that could be the result of using your arms when landing will hurt worse that taking the hit to your body.


Sounds painful [grin]. That's good info for my brain to know.


Thanks for all the advice!

#6 krikkit   Members   -  Reputation: 792

Posted 17 September 2006 - 06:39 AM

Your instinct to brace falls with arms or legs is a tradeoff. You are presenting extremities for damage to save your more critical internal organs and brain.

Therefore, your body will sacrifice your arms and legs to save its critical functions....therefore, its a great thing for saving your life, not so good for falling for fun.

[Edited by - krikkit on September 17, 2006 1:39:14 PM]

#7 AndreTheGiant   Members   -  Reputation: 127

Posted 17 September 2006 - 02:28 PM

Ive played for a while, and as far as I can tell, laying out doesnt gain you anything. To be specific, you can grab the disk faster if you just keep running. Doing the jump-dive known as 'laying out' is slightly slower and youre better off not doing it. Its only purpose is to show off. So I hope it hurts.
That said, Ive seen a few impressive dives in the heat of a game so hats off to you guys who can pull it off.

#8 Katta   Members   -  Reputation: 560

Posted 17 September 2006 - 05:15 PM

I have to disagree Andre. Oftentimes a dive will score you a catch that otherwise you would have not made because, if done properly, a layout is faster than simply running. You're using both the full jumping power of your legs as well as gravity to increase your speed. Not to mention sometimes it's really hard to catch a Frisbee that's three inches off the turf while running full tilt. The layout gets you closer to the ground while maintaining your current speed.

#9 Sneftel   Senior Moderators   -  Reputation: 1776

Posted 17 September 2006 - 05:17 PM

Quote:
Original post by capn_midnight's sister
I'm in my second year of playing Ultimate for my college team ... so although not quite an expert, I do have some experience on this issue. And I love to lay out.

Hot.

#10 Sean T. McBeth   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1406

Posted 17 September 2006 - 06:25 PM

Quote:
Original post by Sneftel
Quote:
Original post by capn_midnight's sister
I'm in my second year of playing Ultimate for my college team ... so although not quite an expert, I do have some experience on this issue. And I love to lay out.

Hot.



[Formerly "capn_midnight". See some of my projects. Find me on twitter tumblr G+ Github.]


#11 AndreTheGiant   Members   -  Reputation: 127

Posted 18 September 2006 - 04:04 AM

Quote:
Original post by Katta
I have to disagree Andre. Oftentimes a dive will score you a catch that otherwise you would have not made because, if done properly, a layout is faster than simply running. You're using both the full jumping power of your legs as well as gravity to increase your speed. Not to mention sometimes it's really hard to catch a Frisbee that's three inches off the turf while running full tilt. The layout gets you closer to the ground while maintaining your current speed.


Hmmm, I donno. Mayyyyybe.

But last time I checked, gravity only increases your speed in one direction: down.

And If the 'full jumping power of your legs' is faster than running, then why doesnt everyone jump accross the field, instead of running accross it? Running is faster.

I guess if the disk is really low to the ground then laying out might be a good idea... but personally I think I would prefer to keep running, and then bend down and snatch the disk, rather than laying out. I am positive its faster.

I still admit that laying out looks cool but I dont know about the practicality of it. I think its like sliding in baseball - there may be a reason to do it (for eg avoiding another player), but the reason isnt speed.

#12 Sean T. McBeth   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1406

Posted 18 September 2006 - 04:13 AM

from a physics stand point, gives your center of gravity a small, short burst of speed, that you very quickly lose when you land on the ground (that's why you don't jump down the field). However, because you are altering your body's orientation, the speed of your hand relative to your center of gravity actually increases quite a bit.

[Formerly "capn_midnight". See some of my projects. Find me on twitter tumblr G+ Github.]


#13 AndreTheGiant   Members   -  Reputation: 127

Posted 18 September 2006 - 05:00 AM

Ok sure I guess I can buy that.

But I must say, out of all the layouts Ive seen, Im not convinced any of them were necessary. By 'necessary' I mean that by laying out, the person caught the disk, whereas if he/she didnt lay out, theres no way they could have caught it.

If anyone finds some cool relevant videos on googlevid, please post em!




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