whoops, sorry about the double reply :-\
..Dr.J..
R. E. S. P. E. C. T
quote:Original post by aDasTRa
you want to make a player respect an enemy? punish them for fighting. punish the player by killing them, punish the player by injurying them greatly, or by removing an item from them some how (like have the enemy steal it or break it). Do this every time and the player will not only respect but avoid like the plague these enemies. the player is an animal like us all; animals can be conditioned. strike the player each and every time they do something wrong and they wont do it.
<(o)>
In other words,
Thief: The Dark Project
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself. What a plight we who try to make a story-based game have...writers of conventional media have words, we have but binary numbers
There is a thin difference here.If the AI opponent is too stupid, the player don''t respect it. If it''s too smart, the player don''t respect it either ; he''ll just get frustrated and nervous - how can he be more stupid than an AI...- so it''s not an easy thing to design/program.Still I think you don''t have to.Most of the gamers I know LIKE the "overboosted pest exterminator " feeling - and they take great pleasure in C&C and clones, Startcraft & clones, Quake & clones.These guys simply don''t know how to play a game.Each time the situation goes wrong either by their fault or stupid mistake, either by computer being too smart, they use the reload method to get out of trouble a.s.a.p.They reload and reload until they find the weaknesses of the computer and then goes through mission row pedalling on those weaknesses.I live under the impression that the majority of the gamers play this way.And to try to make a player like this respect an AI is a nonsense.Respect is something you get through education - and these peoples don''t get gaming education - they''re too busy countin frags and kills.
Regards,
Jabba
The Truth Is Not To Be Spoken In A Loud Voice
Regards,
Jabba
The Truth Is Not To Be Spoken In A Loud Voice
quote:Original post by Jabba
Respect is something you get through education - and these peoples don''t get gaming education - they''re too busy countin frags and kills.
I hate to agree with such a pessimistic view, but Jabba''s right. The vast majority of players care to kill, kill, kill, and kill some more. Its a major problem in the online gaming world, with MUDa, MOOS, and even the commercial MMOs all struggling with the problem.
The games industry might well be a young industry, but a massive segment of the market is even more immature than the industry. I remember one MMO I tried, Graal online (I can''t remember the website), which was a Zelda-clone. It was geared towards Pkilling, with the admins openly supporting such practices. Because of this, growth was exponential. Towards the end of my short stay, close to 2,000 people were spread out among the dozen-or so servers on this 3-year old free game AT THE SAME TIME.
Whilst there is a solid core of sensible gamers, they are in the minority. A fact which I find perpetually depressing.
Author
quote:Original post by Dr J
2. Even if "Evil", the enemy should have reasons for fighting the player. And the player should be able to guess what these are. Invading territory / prohibited areas, endangering their young, etc.
Perhaps in my case this isn't so true. Why am I killing players in a deathmatch competition? Quake 3 does have some kind of lame plot centered around a contest or something (ala Mortal Kombat) but basically I have no reason! Its kind of fun when its a challenge or I'm playing against friends but theres no reason for me to be fragging.
These contest based games are not about plot or character or emotions, they are about skill & fast action. Thus there it wouldn't work very well in this context to try and make the player respect the enemy [as a character] although respecting them as a worthy Game Opponent.
Engendering respect for the enemy is more appropriate in games which represent an adventure scenario. Ie. Half-Life etc.
Edited by - Ketchaval on March 30, 2001 7:04:25 AM
I don't think there's reason to be as pessimistic about respect as Jabba & DM. Naz already pointed out Theif, and I'll give my vote to Half-Life's special forces commandos. When I first encountered them, I thought, "yeah right, I'm gonna kick there as*"
Then they started teaming up on me. I did my little Quake 2 / Duke Nukem tricks of hiding, x/y positioning on the walls, waiting...
And I got grenades dropped in my lap for my troubles!
I remember finding groups of them and just saying, "Screw it!!!! RUUUUUUUUUUNNNNNN!!!!" Especially playing on Hard, and after STEADILY getting whooped up on, believe me, I learned not only RESPECT but FEAR. 
btw, I say don't worry too much because I count myself as one of those incessant reloaders. I must have reloaded a thousand times with the current game I'm playing, Fallout 2.
The problem IS NOT being so whiney you don't want to lose; the problem is that the process leading up to losing IS NOT FUN!!! In Fallout, for example, you meet a superior force and can rarely run away, can rarely hide, and so you just stand there and die. That's weak.
Every time that I lost to the special forces guys in Half-Life, the gameplay leading up to it was awesome . I don't know how they did it, but they made even losing fun.
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Just waiting for the mothership...
Edited by - Wavinator on March 30, 2001 5:41:03 PM
Then they started teaming up on me. I did my little Quake 2 / Duke Nukem tricks of hiding, x/y positioning on the walls, waiting...
And I got grenades dropped in my lap for my troubles!
I remember finding groups of them and just saying, "Screw it!!!! RUUUUUUUUUUNNNNNN!!!!" Especially playing on Hard, and after STEADILY getting whooped up on, believe me, I learned not only RESPECT but FEAR. btw, I say don't worry too much because I count myself as one of those incessant reloaders. I must have reloaded a thousand times with the current game I'm playing, Fallout 2.
The problem IS NOT being so whiney you don't want to lose; the problem is that the process leading up to losing IS NOT FUN!!! In Fallout, for example, you meet a superior force and can rarely run away, can rarely hide, and so you just stand there and die. That's weak.
Every time that I lost to the special forces guys in Half-Life, the gameplay leading up to it was awesome . I don't know how they did it, but they made even losing fun.
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Just waiting for the mothership...
Edited by - Wavinator on March 30, 2001 5:41:03 PM
RESPECT is a product of TOLERANCE and FEAR. If you FEAR to encounter the enemy, you will TOLERATE him, as long as you know, that you can''t defeat him. TOLERANCE is build with DISTANCE, i.e. in some cutscenes the Enemy talks or thinks about the player, or the player talks/thinks about the enemy (but they are in their bases, or they are travelling around the world or something else).
Neither Half-Life nor Thief or other games create this feeling of RESPECT. Most games FORCE the player to feel RESPECT, cause these games have a very linear story, and thats not the same.
RESPECT can just be created in Non-Linear games, where the player CAN encounter the enemy when he wants, but can just defeat him, when he will be strong enough.
Neither Half-Life nor Thief or other games create this feeling of RESPECT. Most games FORCE the player to feel RESPECT, cause these games have a very linear story, and thats not the same.
RESPECT can just be created in Non-Linear games, where the player CAN encounter the enemy when he wants, but can just defeat him, when he will be strong enough.
quote:Original post by KingKub
Neither Half-Life nor Thief or other games create this feeling of RESPECT.
I don''t know about Thief (cause it wouldn''t run on my system at the time) but HL definitely got my respect.
You''re saying that only games where you can avoid the enemy make you respect them? But you could RUN from them in HL!
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Just waiting for the mothership...
HL is a linear game. The enemies and the player can''t change their minds about each other. The player has a strict opinion of them and the enemies have a strict opinion of the player. They have to have RESPECT. That''s FORCED RESPECT and not a real feeling of RESPECT.
Well, I suppose I''d write a good and involving story first to make the player respect an enemy...
First of all, it''s hard to respect a minion. Another marine? Frag him. Another alien? Frag him. Another Nazi? Frag him. What you should really feel respect for are those in command, those in power. Those guys kick butt, they''re not just another faceless minion.
Take Dark Forces II for instance. I didn''t feel respect for the stormtroopers. I just frag them and get it over with. However, when I fought the Dark Jedi, I was always on the edge of my seat.
Another example is Darth Vader. If any of you have read Shadows of the Empire, you''ll remember that he considered the X Wing pilots just flies. What he really wanted was to go against an equal... Luke Skywalker.
- DarkMage139 (Neokatana Software)
GDT Underground Info
Release Date: "When hell freezes over" (a.k.a. A very long time from now)
Genre: Action/Adventure
Platform: Windows 98 and DirectX 8
Status: [working on the engine]
l337ness: TOTALLY l337
First of all, it''s hard to respect a minion. Another marine? Frag him. Another alien? Frag him. Another Nazi? Frag him. What you should really feel respect for are those in command, those in power. Those guys kick butt, they''re not just another faceless minion.
Take Dark Forces II for instance. I didn''t feel respect for the stormtroopers. I just frag them and get it over with. However, when I fought the Dark Jedi, I was always on the edge of my seat.
Another example is Darth Vader. If any of you have read Shadows of the Empire, you''ll remember that he considered the X Wing pilots just flies. What he really wanted was to go against an equal... Luke Skywalker.
- DarkMage139 (Neokatana Software)
GDT Underground Info
Release Date: "When hell freezes over" (a.k.a. A very long time from now)
Genre: Action/Adventure
Platform: Windows 98 and DirectX 8
Status: [working on the engine]
l337ness: TOTALLY l337
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