Hi, I'm here to get some advice on what I should do about schooling in my current predicament.
Ive searched alot around the internet on the subject of eductation to land a job as an entry level programmer and my analysis is this;
The older experienced folk will urge towards more traditional degrees such as CS/Mathematics/Physics. While this is all well and good, I'm afraid to say my embaressing educational background may prevent me from landing a position on such a course (though by no means am I about to give up without even trying!)
Also, there is alot of "stuff" floating around on the internet that advises against it (and vice versa, which is part of the problem) in favor of a computer game programming degree. The reasons for this are loosely as follows;
- Work placement
- Networking with other developer studios
- Ready portfolio upon graduation, "Hit the ground running"
*Ping* While this sounds good in theory, we can all see the drawbacks of taking a computer game programming degree; There is no respect for it in other industries and perhaps even the games industry because of the media perception of games development. Aswell as the fact that the CS degree is going to be more thorough as far as the technical stuff goes (atleast, thats the general consensus)
*Pong* However, I get the feeling if I were to take CS degree I am less likely to get a job in the games industry and probably end up at some large corporation doing "regular programming" no doubt this has happend to many hopefuls due to lack of those all important connections, which a game programming course provides. I have heard that many of the people who take work placements end up working at that company after the degree. A foot in the door! Woo!
The way I see it, having a CS degree is a very nice trophy (much bigger and shinnier than a CGP one) and is a sure thing for those wanting to get into software engineering/development. However CGP graduates may just have the edge in terms of landing a job due to thier specific training, complete portfolio of immediatley applicable skills when graduating, and..
... I could go on for ages talking about this but I just wanna get my questions out so here they are;
- Preferably based in england, what CGP/CS universities would you recommend? As you know I have two CGP schools Im going to apply for.
I urge you to check out the following links and give me your opinions:
University of Derby Computer Games Programming BSc(Hons)
University of Huddersfield Computer Games Programming BSc(Hons)
The huddersfield one doesnt provide any info on the languages and stuff so I emailed something along the lines of this question and got this answer:
Q: What languages, frameworks and tools do you use?
A: Java/C# in the first year, C++ in the second, final year no new languages are added, though HLSL is introduced here. Tools Visual Studio, Eclipse.
- What would you recommend I do to increase my chances of getting onto a CS degree? Mentioning something in my personal statement?
I have also considered trying Teeside but like CS, I doubt I will get in, looking at the entry requirements. Also, it's pretty far away (up the other end of the country!) and I kinda wanna stay within weekend driving distance of home for the moment.
- Basically, I just feel like the ball in a game of ping pong. My head is spinning, I feel sick, and I need to make a decision that isnt going to ruin my education/chances/life further.. What do I do?
I feel like I have more to say on this but I cant bring whatever it is to mind, So for now I'll leave it at that and perhaps add more depending on responses.
Thanks so much for reading a blithering fools cries for help..
[Edited by - CodeCriminal on October 30, 2010 5:19:27 PM]
UK Education
It all comes down to your career aspirations. The UK was thriving in games development but with the government deciding not to give tax breaks it has hit the industry a little harder than anyone could have imagined (RealtimeWorlds?).
Canada has some of the best tax breaks for games companies in the world and it is starting to thrive. UK has the skills, history and structure to support this but no government has exploited it. I remember hearing gaming was 3rd biggest sector in Scotland at one point, not due to government but despite it.
If you take a computing course then you can still have the games industry connections you just have to make that effort. Apply to work for free at a games company over a summer, become a tester, make your own games, etc.
Have a look at starting a team for this for next year http://www.daretobedigital.com/. It allows you to setup connections and is a good experience.
Canada has some of the best tax breaks for games companies in the world and it is starting to thrive. UK has the skills, history and structure to support this but no government has exploited it. I remember hearing gaming was 3rd biggest sector in Scotland at one point, not due to government but despite it.
If you take a computing course then you can still have the games industry connections you just have to make that effort. Apply to work for free at a games company over a summer, become a tester, make your own games, etc.
Have a look at starting a team for this for next year http://www.daretobedigital.com/. It allows you to setup connections and is a good experience.
"(RealtimeWorlds?)"
From what I understand, RTW basically needed near-deistic intervention, and government tax breaks fall a bit short of that...
From what I understand, RTW basically needed near-deistic intervention, and government tax breaks fall a bit short of that...
I cant make the decision for you, but I can give you my experience. I studied a CGP degree and got a fairly good grade - I now work for the government on some pretty high profile projects(which I love!).
So, why did I choose a games degree?
I wanted to learn to program, but I think I would have got bored learning CS principles alone. It enabled me to get the same skills as a CS student but obtained in a more enjoyable way.
Why aren't I working in the games industry?
Well, personal circumstances arose which prevented me moving away - Wales isn't the centrepoint of game development, so developing games is a hobby that I can use to further my skills whilst doing something I love.
Knowing what I know now, would I do a CGP degree again?
No. I dont have enough fingers to count how many times my C.V was thrown out purely because I had a CGP degree and not a CS degree. If you are good enough to get into the games industry then do this degree, BUT if circumstances change, are you prepared to go jobless for a while whilst people rubbish your degree (its a fact, it happens).
My advice.
Go for the CS degree and develop games around it. No doubt there will be like-minded people on the course who you can group with and develop games with. Heck, if a game meets the criteria of an assignment there's nothing to say you cant submit a game for a CS assignment.
Finally, if you are positive the game industry is where you will end up, checkwith the university you choose how many student have ended up getting a job in games after their degree - contact them and ask for their experience of the university.
So, why did I choose a games degree?
I wanted to learn to program, but I think I would have got bored learning CS principles alone. It enabled me to get the same skills as a CS student but obtained in a more enjoyable way.
Why aren't I working in the games industry?
Well, personal circumstances arose which prevented me moving away - Wales isn't the centrepoint of game development, so developing games is a hobby that I can use to further my skills whilst doing something I love.
Knowing what I know now, would I do a CGP degree again?
No. I dont have enough fingers to count how many times my C.V was thrown out purely because I had a CGP degree and not a CS degree. If you are good enough to get into the games industry then do this degree, BUT if circumstances change, are you prepared to go jobless for a while whilst people rubbish your degree (its a fact, it happens).
My advice.
Go for the CS degree and develop games around it. No doubt there will be like-minded people on the course who you can group with and develop games with. Heck, if a game meets the criteria of an assignment there's nothing to say you cant submit a game for a CS assignment.
Finally, if you are positive the game industry is where you will end up, checkwith the university you choose how many student have ended up getting a job in games after their degree - contact them and ask for their experience of the university.
RealtimeWorlds made a lot of mistakes but government breaks would have allowed more development time instead of a rushed title and/or they could have released another of thier titles to get more revenue.
Government tax breaks may not have directly made or broke the studio but they didn't help when they pulled the plug on them. If employees keep going to overseas as they get more money (due to companies getting tax breaks) then it cost more to hire or retain any of the people with the required skills in UK. So any projections RealtimeWorld would have given to it's creditors would have included these in the forecasts.
Government tax breaks may not have directly made or broke the studio but they didn't help when they pulled the plug on them. If employees keep going to overseas as they get more money (due to companies getting tax breaks) then it cost more to hire or retain any of the people with the required skills in UK. So any projections RealtimeWorld would have given to it's creditors would have included these in the forecasts.
Gotta say I agree with Katie. I don't think the problem with APB was that it was rushed, nor would some government money helped - it was the way the whole company worked that was wrong (in addition to making a shallow game that should have been designed to retain players).
Back to topic:
I have to say CodeCriminal, what matters more to a company more than if you have a computer science degree, or games programming degree is how good you are at what you do. Taking a computer game degree will not ensure you're any good at what you do, but as long as you finish the course people will have more confidence that you can actually make games over a computer science graduate who hasn't made any games. That said, I'm not advocating computer games degrees:
If you do go for a computer science degree, you should try to make it computer game oriented as possible. e.g. I did software engineering myself, and I took modules such as artificial intelligence for games, human computer interaction, basically any excuse to get an opportunity to make games. If you're asked to make a project using web technologies, make a game and so on.
Back to topic:
I have to say CodeCriminal, what matters more to a company more than if you have a computer science degree, or games programming degree is how good you are at what you do. Taking a computer game degree will not ensure you're any good at what you do, but as long as you finish the course people will have more confidence that you can actually make games over a computer science graduate who hasn't made any games. That said, I'm not advocating computer games degrees:
If you do go for a computer science degree, you should try to make it computer game oriented as possible. e.g. I did software engineering myself, and I took modules such as artificial intelligence for games, human computer interaction, basically any excuse to get an opportunity to make games. If you're asked to make a project using web technologies, make a game and so on.
I did a Games Degree and a Masters in Games Programming. AFAIK, everyone on the Masters got a job in the industry around graduation time. Admittedly, this was in 2006 during the 'boom' of the new consoles.
After working in Games for 3 years or so, I applied for 2 jobs outside of games (one was at Boeing Defence) and got shortlisted for interviews. I am now working at one of those companies.
If you looking at a Games Programming degree, then also look at Hull. The Derby one you have listed is very good. I have spoken with the students and lecturers there and they both seem to be on top of the ball with lots of links to the industry.
Like anything, there are some really good degrees and lots of bad ones in any subject. Just make sure you choose one of the good ones and you shouldn't have many problems.
After working in Games for 3 years or so, I applied for 2 jobs outside of games (one was at Boeing Defence) and got shortlisted for interviews. I am now working at one of those companies.
If you looking at a Games Programming degree, then also look at Hull. The Derby one you have listed is very good. I have spoken with the students and lecturers there and they both seem to be on top of the ball with lots of links to the industry.
Like anything, there are some really good degrees and lots of bad ones in any subject. Just make sure you choose one of the good ones and you shouldn't have many problems.
Quote:Original post by CodeCriminal
1. I'm afraid to say my embaressing educational background may prevent me from landing a position on such a course (though by no means am I about to give up without even trying!)
2. - What would you recommend I do to increase my chances of getting onto a CS degree? Mentioning something in my personal statement?
3. - Basically, I just feel like the ball in a game of ping pong. My head is spinning,
1. What are you saying? You've had poor grades? Is that what you're saying?
2. That depends on why you say your chances of getting in are so poor. If you're saying it's because of poor grades heretofore, then surely you can start at a small school, get better grades, then transfer after a couple years with a better record. Here in the US we have community colleges that are easy to get into and low-cost (and nearby). Don't know if you also have such things in the UK.
3. Your head is spinning because you're trying to keep too many disparate facts and seemingly contradictory opinions and advice all in your head. Put them on paper, organize them, prioritize them. In other words, make a decision grid. See FAQ 70 (View Forum FAQ, tiny blue link above).
You might want to check on the skillset approved courses that are developed with the industry. I know that Sheffield Hallam is trying to get skillset accredited on their bsc and Mcomp courses having just had the first sets of students graduate over the last years. I've also heard good things about Derby's course too.
The other thing to look at is what tech you will be using and the partnerships that the Uni's have within the industry.
The other thing to look at is what tech you will be using and the partnerships that the Uni's have within the industry.
Author
Thank you all for your great insight and advice :) I have taken it all into consideration and now leaning more towards a computer science degree. Turns out I may have chance of getting into such a programme as I've done some more research on courses offered by universities around the UK and most only require C-B grade in math for which I am covered. My worry was that they would require an A level in mathematics and UCAS points to come from a similarly oriented course to computer science. I took a course in (media) games development, which I kinda regret but I dont because;
1. It seemed like the only option at the time that would get me where I wanted to go (I lack motivation in academic studies im not interested in, prime example; I dropped out of secondary school, but not just because im lazy, there were other factors which I wont go into here).
2. Through the course I have achieved a substantial amount of UCAS points so far, for applying to many universities.
I think I'll explain a little more about where I want to be and what I want to do to get there.
I wish to join the game industry first as an entry-level programmer and move my way up to engine/tools development as I find them the most interesting/challenging. Implementing the hidden (sub)systems for games is fascinating to me, though I am undecided in which field I would like to specialise in; graphics, physics, AI, etc. (I know graphics and physics are going to take a substantial amount of maths more than GCSE level, fortunatly I have the internet, my trusty whiteboard on the wall beside me, self-taught programming ability, determination, and my noodle).
After I have inevitably burnt out (whether thats within 5-15 years or more(one would be so lucky)) I want to leave the games industry and find a more suitable job to possibly raise a family and live a comfortable life style for the remainder of it.
As far as a degree goes.. I dont really know what I want, if I did then I wouldnt be asking these questions. I know I want to learn to be a better programmer, I also know that I want my career prospects opened up for me after graduation, which would suggest CS degree. But im worried about how much programming actually goes in to CS, from what I can see from the university courses there isnt as much as I would like (maybe this is for the better? I dont know). A lot of these courses dont give much information on course content, and while for most part irrelevant to computer science but relevant to me and my goals, what languages they use? (I know one course mentioned Java, but is that it?)
I know you guys can't tell me what degree to take, and in the end I will inevitably choose a course by myself. I am just hoping that your advice will shed some light on what my decision will ultimatley be.
I think I may suffer from this problem too judging by the names of some modules(I have in other classes), however, after watching some online lectures I did find the content extremely interesting (albeit simple content). Though it was only a fraction of the course so I guess I wont know until im there.
1. Not that I have poor grades, infact I am quite a good student these days. It was just the whole dropping out of secondary school and doing a games development course which is media related not computer/math/science related.
2. Already did, I have been here for a while now and its finally time for university.
3. I have read your your FAQ many times (though for the most part skimming) and have come across your decision grid before which I intend on putting to use. Thanks for the reminder. :)
I hope I have given enough information to cover all your queries, and look forward to hearing additional advice.
Thanks for your help.
I just read a portion of "Do I need a degree" stickied in this forum. I may be looking at what a degree is for wrong. He was talking about how he was self-taught and already had an internship for at a small studio, was it worth him getting a degree? Well the responses were he should get a degree in order to secure jobs, even if what he learns on the degree isnt much. I think in the back of my head I've been going over a similar problem (worrying a CS degree wouldnt cover enough advanced material). Now leaning further towards the CS degree.. Hmm..
PS: What would an ideal course structure be like on a computer science degree? From what I've seen the modules differ from course to course, from country to country. I dont know how much they would differ internally but the names of the modules do.
[Edited by - CodeCriminal on October 30, 2010 6:37:03 PM]
1. It seemed like the only option at the time that would get me where I wanted to go (I lack motivation in academic studies im not interested in, prime example; I dropped out of secondary school, but not just because im lazy, there were other factors which I wont go into here).
2. Through the course I have achieved a substantial amount of UCAS points so far, for applying to many universities.
I think I'll explain a little more about where I want to be and what I want to do to get there.
I wish to join the game industry first as an entry-level programmer and move my way up to engine/tools development as I find them the most interesting/challenging. Implementing the hidden (sub)systems for games is fascinating to me, though I am undecided in which field I would like to specialise in; graphics, physics, AI, etc. (I know graphics and physics are going to take a substantial amount of maths more than GCSE level, fortunatly I have the internet, my trusty whiteboard on the wall beside me, self-taught programming ability, determination, and my noodle).
After I have inevitably burnt out (whether thats within 5-15 years or more(one would be so lucky)) I want to leave the games industry and find a more suitable job to possibly raise a family and live a comfortable life style for the remainder of it.
As far as a degree goes.. I dont really know what I want, if I did then I wouldnt be asking these questions. I know I want to learn to be a better programmer, I also know that I want my career prospects opened up for me after graduation, which would suggest CS degree. But im worried about how much programming actually goes in to CS, from what I can see from the university courses there isnt as much as I would like (maybe this is for the better? I dont know). A lot of these courses dont give much information on course content, and while for most part irrelevant to computer science but relevant to me and my goals, what languages they use? (I know one course mentioned Java, but is that it?)
I know you guys can't tell me what degree to take, and in the end I will inevitably choose a course by myself. I am just hoping that your advice will shed some light on what my decision will ultimatley be.
Quote:I wanted to learn to program, but I think I would have got bored learning CS principles alone.
I think I may suffer from this problem too judging by the names of some modules(I have in other classes), however, after watching some online lectures I did find the content extremely interesting (albeit simple content). Though it was only a fraction of the course so I guess I wont know until im there.
Quote:1. What are you saying? You've had poor grades? Is that what you're saying?
2. That depends on why you say your chances of getting in are so poor. If you're saying it's because of poor grades heretofore, then surely you can start at a small school, get better grades, then transfer after a couple years with a better record. Here in the US we have community colleges that are easy to get into and low-cost (and nearby). Don't know if you also have such things in the UK.
3. Your head is spinning because you're trying to keep too many disparate facts and seemingly contradictory opinions and advice all in your head. Put them on paper, organize them, prioritize them. In other words, make a decision grid. See FAQ 70 (View Forum FAQ, tiny blue link above).
1. Not that I have poor grades, infact I am quite a good student these days. It was just the whole dropping out of secondary school and doing a games development course which is media related not computer/math/science related.
2. Already did, I have been here for a while now and its finally time for university.
3. I have read your your FAQ many times (though for the most part skimming) and have come across your decision grid before which I intend on putting to use. Thanks for the reminder. :)
I hope I have given enough information to cover all your queries, and look forward to hearing additional advice.
Thanks for your help.
I just read a portion of "Do I need a degree" stickied in this forum. I may be looking at what a degree is for wrong. He was talking about how he was self-taught and already had an internship for at a small studio, was it worth him getting a degree? Well the responses were he should get a degree in order to secure jobs, even if what he learns on the degree isnt much. I think in the back of my head I've been going over a similar problem (worrying a CS degree wouldnt cover enough advanced material). Now leaning further towards the CS degree.. Hmm..
PS: What would an ideal course structure be like on a computer science degree? From what I've seen the modules differ from course to course, from country to country. I dont know how much they would differ internally but the names of the modules do.
[Edited by - CodeCriminal on October 30, 2010 6:37:03 PM]
This topic is closed to new replies.
Advertisement
Popular Topics
Advertisement
