"Opportunity to design our game."

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34 comments, last by ougaming 12 years, 11 months ago

[quote name='Tom Sloper' timestamp='1307120136' post='4819137']
[quote name='Songbird' timestamp='1307062310' post='4818928']
if I'm trying to run a business, why am I going to sink $1000 into art that I can't use? How will I benefit from that?

Wrong questions.
[/quote]Technically it is a rhetorical question. [/quote]
So, rhetorically, then, I could posit any kind of bad question, couch it rhetorically, and have a full expectation of not being called out on account of its being a bad rhetorical question. Point is, rhetorical shmetorical, asking "Why should I have to pay a thousand bucks for something I can't use" is going to invite criticism. And yes, the word "criticism" can be used without necessarily invoking the negative connotation often associated with the word -- depending on context.

This whole conversation (this entire thread) has a basic flaw -- there is no universal rule of thumb that can be applied to the whole matter of how much a game artist should be paid for an indie game. The problem is that there are many different definitions of "indie game" (each with a different business purpose and development model) and what's fair to pay depends on which business purpose and development model is involved.

It's a clear case of "it depends."

Before I could answer the original question, I would need a fuller understanding of the business purpose and development model behind the question. The only best universal answer is "execute a collaboration agreement before commencing work." The expectations of both parties must be set forth in writing so as to minimize misunderstandings and missed expectations.

-- Tom Sloper -- sloperama.com

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Before I could answer the original question, I would need a fuller understanding of the business purpose and development model behind the question. The only best universal answer is "execute a collaboration agreement before commencing work." The expectations of both parties must be set forth in writing so as to minimize misunderstandings and missed expectations.


Agreed. Although it does sound like the conversation has steered away from the original purpose of the thread. Which boils down to developers needing to realize artists may not share the same passion about your game as you do and therefore might not be interested in assisting in the continued development of the game and artists understanding that a simple 'no thanks' is all that's needed (in most cases. If I learned anything it's that there's always an exception and people love to point it out).
If I learned anything it's that there's always an exception and people love to point it out).

No. Sometimes there is no exception.
^_~

-- Tom Sloper -- sloperama.com

(Note: Looking through the thread again, I realized that I quoted two different people below. But the quotes reflect the same basic argument so I'm going to leave them as-is.)
My understanding of the original point of this thread was "don't use 'more work' as a bartering chip to attract artists": Saying "I'll let you do design work also" is a bit silly. I get this, I agree with this. Being asked to do more work is usually not a way to get somebody to accept less money.


I have a major problem with the framing of that commentary though. When putting together a team, whether it be for a three-man skunkworks project or a full retail game, the one thing I'm looking for is that every team member wants to make it a better game. I'm not saying I expect them to do my work for me, but I expect them to take an interest in the quality of the overall project, not just in churning out the easiest possible model or texture so they can go do their own thing quicker. I want them to offer ideas, to add their own creative flair, and to generally be a proactive member of a working creative team, not just a art-factory drone.


"[color="#1C2837"]Those are things that artists value; things that will lower the time they have to take on your project"
[color="#1C2837"]"Be willing to compromise on how some pieces will be done, and don't ask the artist for more than 2 miniscule edits without expecting to pay extra."
[color="#1C2837"]"[color="#1C2837"]artists may not share the same passion about your game as you do and therefore might not be interested in assisting in the continued development of the game"
[color="#1C2837"]"[color="#1C2837"]A developer who wants to make money is foolish to expect anyone else to "have more of a vested interest", but especially artists."
[color="#1C2837"]"...but you need to give them [artists] a certain extra benefit of the doubt."

[color="#1C2837"]All of these comments sound like some of the unengaged outsourcing groups I've had the displeasure of dealing with at work. But I've also worked with plenty of really good, really engaged contractors and outsourcers who honestly care about the quality of the game and want to make it better. Those are the people I go back to.

[color="#1C2837"]The last two quotes both assume artists are in some way "extra special"... we all have other projects, there's nothing unique about artists in that regard. [color="#1C2837"]If you're so busy on "your own projects" that you don't care about mine, then I don't care to hire you. It's that simple.


[color="#1C2837"]So anyway, I think you are right that dev teams need to realize that artists want to do art, not art + leftover design work. Engineers often want to code, not code + design. Etc. But I think you also need to realize that an unengaged team member (one that does not care about the whole project, just about his own piece of it) is of little use in game development.

Check out my new game Smash and Dash at:

http://www.smashanddashgame.com/

The entire comment above is extremely idealistic, especially when I mentioned that this post is specifically for minute budgets. What you want from artists is what many professionals provide; a detailed, vested interest with their own small bits of input. I have one very wonderful, long-term client who I provide hours and hours of free consultation time to as far as story, design, and the like, because while he's a great coder, he's clueless about the art and story sides of video games and I constantly make suggestions on what could make his game better.

But he has a market rate budget for what he asks. I know I am working for a fair wage and it makes me interested to see a project that he loves so much he is willing to invest that kind of money into, and gets me more excited to work on something he's really putting everything into.

Otherwise?

It's pretty damn ballsy to expect an artist to do more than you paid him to do "to make a better game", especially when non-artist game devs rarely have a real clue how much work can go into one piece. I still have people looking at me doing one picture for 15 hours and asking why I'm stiiiiiiiiiill on that same old picture. Most devs looking for artists just see the quality they want and don't pay attention to how much time the artist needed to do it, only that they can do it.

If you want people to be very talented and also very invested in your game, you have two choices. Get REALLY lucky, or pay them for their interest. When you don't pay, you will not get as much interest. Call them "unengaged" if you want, but "engaged" costs money in most cases. Why would you expect an artist to do anything but a quick, low detail job if you can only afford to pay them minimum wage or less? Again, apply it to your own life. If you charge $1000 to do a certain project to the best of your ability, a number you selected to account for the average time you spend making it the best you can, and someone begs you to lower than price to $100, do you think you will spend the same amount of time getting it to the best you can? Getting realistic is one of the biggest things indie devs fail at, and expecting artists to immediately find themselves enraptured in your idea to the point where they will double and triple their hours on a piece they aren't getting paid extra for isn't realistic or smart.

The statements quoted above are all facts of the business:
When you are broke and paying an artist below a certain amount, you should essentially expect they will cut the time on your project for other, higher paying projects. That doesn't mean that they will, but you should plan ahead with that expectation clear in your mind.
Asking for many edits without paying extra will anger your artist. It would anger anyone.
If you are broke and actually want to keep a decent artist with your project, you need to give them the benefit of the doubt and more. If that's "special" to you, then pay more. If you can't, you'll likely need to just plain deal with it.

In the end, it all comes down to the simple adage: Beggars can't be choosers. All game devs want their artists to be excellent, fast and cheap, and the fact is that you just can't realistically expect to get that diamond in the rough that is all three.
I partially agree. While you should not expect to be able to get exactly what you want you should also be willing to walk away from a deal. Though, you shouldn't approach a deal trying to "get the best deal" either. I think initially you should simply get a feel for what they want to charge for an amount of work under certain conditions. It should begin as simple as such:

[bquote]I'm an indie game developer with a game well into development with a small team and am looking for a skin artist to make some skins for about 300 to 350 3D models. Deliverables are expected in stages by the end of each month. Frequent communication is desired and I understand that it may take a lengthy initial consultation to communicate what the game needs though your input is welcomed as well. A portfolio is required preferably with examples of work at various stages of completion. My budget is in the low to moderate range and I understand this may prevent some of you from replying. Please let me know what you would charge for such a project and don't hesitate to ask questions that would help you provide an accurate estimate.[/bquote]

And go from there. If the prices you get aren't what you want then you'll either need to pair down your request or move on to another job board. These types of things really should leave ego at the door. The people you're asking for work having come to you and said "I want to be your employee" or anything like that. Rather, you're beseeching them for their services so you sort of need to keep it humble. They aren't trying to screw you over most times either. They're just answering a question you asked.
Always strive to be better than yourself.
You're right, my post was idealistic. I'm the first to admit that I am an idealistic person: in fact, I am proud of it :)

Also note that your posts are idealistic as well: they're just supposing a different ideal.

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My Ideal: When I hire somebody to work on my game, my expectations are that they make the game better. That I'm not hiring a monkey to do monkey's work, but that I'm hiring somebody with motivation to put their name on something special.

What this seems to sound like to you: I expect absurd amounts of overtime working on things other than your typical art. I don't, by the way.

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My interpretation of your ideal: Developers paying below a certain amount should just let you create whatever base content they ask for, and be happy with whatever they get.

What your ideal sounds like to me: If I order a steak, and the restaurant agrees to give me a steak, and then I get a burger patty smothered in ketchup, I'm going to send it back and ask for a steak.

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My proposed solution: Scheduling for the time spent being engaged: iteration time, team discussions, etc. If Dev X is paying you for 50 hours worth of work, plan your pieces so that they will take 40 hours to complete. You might have to compromise some of the details, but that extra 10 hours becomes team-time. It becomes the time that you can really get invested in what you're doing, talk to the designers to find out how to improve the game, etc. I schedule for 5-hours of "real" work per day: very few people on our team schedule for more than 6, because we know that there is a bunch of "non-real" work to do each day as well.

Then the project you're working on gets scoped accordingly. If the dev you're working with doesn't understand this logic, you always have the right to not take the deal.

This means you might have to spend 10 hours on that piece that you planned to spend 15 on, + 3 hours iteration based on team feedback + 2 hours buffer. The loss of detail will only be noticeable to you, I guarantee it. Most artists I know are perfectionists about their work, and it looks "shippable" long before they actually call it done.

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So what I'm saying is that I agree that you should not be asked to do more than you're being paid for. I'm saying that many developers think they are paying you for engagement, not just for art. Maybe you should ask this up-front, and if they're looking for more than just art you should schedule that into your time.

Check out my new game Smash and Dash at:

http://www.smashanddashgame.com/

Your compromise might not work. What I mean by that is that, similar to development, the later you ask for revisions in a project can prolong how long it takes to create a deliverable. The difference lies in that with an art project there is a certain way components come together to present the overall end goal of the work. Art is often times a very specific formula and messing with that formula a lot of times necessitates the artist starting from scratch. It's the same for both worlds. An "easy" change to someone who doesn't know code is the same thing as a coder requesting an "easy" change from an artist. The same holds true even if it's a simple request such as "I want x component in this graphic to be color y instead of color z as you have it." The composition of the image may need to be reworked for the overall cohesiveness of the piece to stay in tact. That is a process coders don't know. That's why a more collaborative environment should exist where the artist can say "I can do that but I'm going to have to rework this from the beginning" and that should be totally okay. Either you push and have them start the process or you withhold and everything stays as it is but if you push then don't expect them to hold the same price if they quoted you a project cost rather than an hourly rate.
Always strive to be better than yourself.

What I mean by that is that, similar to development, the later you ask for revisions in a project can prolong how long it takes to create a deliverable.


Agreed - game development is hard. Revisions late in the project are very hard. So plan time for them, that's all I'm saying, because iteration is the key to quality. If you don't iterate, your game won't be as good... guaranteed. Plan for additional time on top of your art for iteration and team engagement, and scope your art accordingly.

Unless, of course, your team is in "damn the torpedoes, lets just get something out the door" mode. Then all bets are off, my whole argument falls apart, and quality goes out the window. I've been on those projects too, and they are the most depressing times in my career.

Check out my new game Smash and Dash at:

http://www.smashanddashgame.com/

Sorry for the double post, but something just occurred to me: maybe part of my problem is that we are referring to "artists" and "developers" as if they are different people. They're not. "Artists" and "Engineers" are both developers, or more accurately they make up the Development Team. Nobody's special, and yet everybody is. We all have to make the same types of compromises, and I encourage engineers to plan "buffer time" for iteration and team engagement just as I encourage artists to do the same.

Check out my new game Smash and Dash at:

http://www.smashanddashgame.com/

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