I would like to ask if pvp should be build around "whoever attacks first wins" or with more balanced approach like wow.
A) Whoever attacks first wins :
Example Glasscannon mages at lv 6 in League of legends. Everything dies in 1 hit. <Annie> at lv 6 can blink and instant kill <le-blanc> in 1 button press, but <le-blanc> could have pressed the attack button before annie blinked, instantly killing her when she comes in range (after blink). So a skilled annie should have blinked after le-blanc pressed attack button on a minion.
Benefits:
1) prevention is important: Since everything dies in 1 hit, you know that if someone attacks first you will instantly die, so you watch spell ranges, skillshots, buy wards. Support champions become usefull because they can buy wards and grant vision of area.
2) Lucky players can go 1vs5 and get penta without losing 1 hp: example fed karthus/fiddlesticks/trynda/yi against nabs.
3) Class imbalance doesnt matter because everything dies in 1hit. This allows more class divercity. You can win even if you have inferior gear, or are an inferior player.
cons:
1) player skill relies only who jumps first on others.
2) battles can last 0 sec [ opponent dies in exactly 1 hit ]
3) melee champions are useless in group battles.
4) can cause rage, trolls, negative attitude.
note: blablabla you can buy armor, but i dont consider it as an option in my analysis in order to demonstrate what "whoever attacks first wins" playstyle means.
Another example is vannilla wow, even if battles lasts longer e.g 6 seconds you will be stunned 100% of your time and just die without being able to do a single thing [i forbid pvp trinket for this mode].
B) Tanky players like in wow cataclysm. Battles take 15-20 seconds to end.
Benefits:
1) The effect of a battles can change even if you get jumped. Skill plays a more important role here.
2) you can "play" before you die.
Cons:
1) nabs wont be able to beat skilled players.
2) class are too homogenized. Why should i play a druid when a warrior does the same job and without having to heal ? It seems the warrior is better, he wins in pvp without having to run away like a coward and he has a much easier playstyle. And the druid gets no rewards for playing a harder class.
3) if enemy has better gear, it just gives the illusion you have a "chance" to fight back. Why not instant die in 0sec (as mercifull death) to avoid watching the 15 second pvp fight.
Should pvp be glasscannon like ?
Just basing the pvp on who attacks first doesn't work in most games, and certainly not in RPG's. It fits well in games like Counter Strike and Call of Duty. Because there is aim involved. But targeting and pressing one button does not even deserve to be called PVP, and using the word skill in it is ignorant.
You compare a druid and warrior in wow as if the warrior was a better class. Either you never played a druid, or you just plain sucked.
You can root the warrior in place and kill him from a distance if you are really bad, or go bear form and fight it melee until low HP and heal full almost instantly and then get back into bear. How is the warrior better in that case?
To get back on topic I don't think 1 hit kills should exist in any game where aim is not a factor. And even then the 1 hit killzone should be small (headshot). Otherwise you might aswell implement a dice in the game, and the player who rolls highest wins, and that would be more rewarding than just pressing any attack first.
Just my two cents.
You compare a druid and warrior in wow as if the warrior was a better class. Either you never played a druid, or you just plain sucked.
You can root the warrior in place and kill him from a distance if you are really bad, or go bear form and fight it melee until low HP and heal full almost instantly and then get back into bear. How is the warrior better in that case?
To get back on topic I don't think 1 hit kills should exist in any game where aim is not a factor. And even then the 1 hit killzone should be small (headshot). Otherwise you might aswell implement a dice in the game, and the player who rolls highest wins, and that would be more rewarding than just pressing any attack first.
Just my two cents.
In one word: No.
If a game is "whoever attacks first, wins", it means that it will, by design, suck for 50% of the players. Every time.
A game needs to be fun and challenging, and it should last for more than an instant. Games do not have a real purpose, they are for passing time, in an entertaining/satisfying way. Knowing that you will lose anyway because someone fired a shot at you from far away before you were ready is not entertaining. Knowing that you will win anyway because you attacked first is not challenging or entertaining (other than in a sadistic way) either.
Even if the odds are unfavourable, a player must still see (or at least have the illusion of) the possibility of winning, and must, at least in principle, have the possibility to turn the odds.
If a game is "whoever attacks first, wins", it means that it will, by design, suck for 50% of the players. Every time.
A game needs to be fun and challenging, and it should last for more than an instant. Games do not have a real purpose, they are for passing time, in an entertaining/satisfying way. Knowing that you will lose anyway because someone fired a shot at you from far away before you were ready is not entertaining. Knowing that you will win anyway because you attacked first is not challenging or entertaining (other than in a sadistic way) either.
Even if the odds are unfavourable, a player must still see (or at least have the illusion of) the possibility of winning, and must, at least in principle, have the possibility to turn the odds.
I like the "first hit wins"-style more than the other one, since it is more skill-based. Well, the condition is, that you can prevent to be dead after 1 hit.
A really nice example is the wc3 funmap "Fate Another". Each Hero has an ability to 1 shot enemies. However, the map is really skill-based since you can use blink scrolls, Anti magic potions, shield scrolls, run away(vs channeling abilities) or use a defensive skill to survive. It's really exciting when u know that you could die in 1 sec if you don't pay attention. However, new players tend to quit the game, since they don't know how to play and call the map imbalanced and boring, which could be a problem with those games.
I remember my first time playing a fps(cs 1.6). I was really frustrated in the beginning, because I got instant-killed and couldn't even see the enemies >.<
To the other system:
In my opinion, it's less skill based. Disable as much as possible and use the right skills whenever its possible.
It's true, it requires time to learn the right timing for the skills but that's all.
In fps, u have to aim better than other players and try to "read" them.
I don't like your example for the glass-cannons. There is much more in LoL than "Get to lvl 6 Asap and 1 hit the enemy", like positioning, teamwork, gold, etc.
You could also let a Cho'gath fight against a Galio and you get the 'B' system.
A fps would be a better example for the glasscannons.
In the end, it depends on the game. If Pvp is the main-element(fps), you should go with first one. If pvp is only a side-element (like in most mmorpgs) the 2nd one would be better.
A really nice example is the wc3 funmap "Fate Another". Each Hero has an ability to 1 shot enemies. However, the map is really skill-based since you can use blink scrolls, Anti magic potions, shield scrolls, run away(vs channeling abilities) or use a defensive skill to survive. It's really exciting when u know that you could die in 1 sec if you don't pay attention. However, new players tend to quit the game, since they don't know how to play and call the map imbalanced and boring, which could be a problem with those games.
I remember my first time playing a fps(cs 1.6). I was really frustrated in the beginning, because I got instant-killed and couldn't even see the enemies >.<
To the other system:
1) [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif]The effect of a battles can change even if you get jumped. Skill plays a more important role here.
[/font]
In my opinion, it's less skill based. Disable as much as possible and use the right skills whenever its possible.
It's true, it requires time to learn the right timing for the skills but that's all.
In fps, u have to aim better than other players and try to "read" them.
I don't like your example for the glass-cannons. There is much more in LoL than "Get to lvl 6 Asap and 1 hit the enemy", like positioning, teamwork, gold, etc.
You could also let a Cho'gath fight against a Galio and you get the 'B' system.
A fps would be a better example for the glasscannons.
In the end, it depends on the game. If Pvp is the main-element(fps), you should go with first one. If pvp is only a side-element (like in most mmorpgs) the 2nd one would be better.
Author
@hustlerinc
You mentioned aim. Ok lets suppose we make all attacks dodgeable skillshots.
1) the good thing is the ability to dodge all spells, attacks depending on the player skill, not on character stats.
2) the bad thing is that crowd control spells mean instant death. If 1 stun hits it will disable movement, thus all spells will become auto-hit. Even headshots are easy against immobile opponents.
With this addition "Whoever presses 1 button wins" becomes "Whoever hits with crowd control wins".
Druid means feral druid, since the other specs are against the druid lore
[ no reason to play balance druid if elemental shaman can do more dmg and shock. ]
A feral druid has limited mana, meaning that even if he spends his whole mana bar with the skills you mentioned he will deal 5% of warriors hp, because warrior gets healed from stuns, roots, etc. Also heals can only be used outside of combat, because -healing debuffs mean that you heal less dmg than enemy deals thus it is an illegal action.
@samoth
I see your point, dying without the ability to dodge attacks will be frustating.
Lets say with the addition of skillshots, you "dodge" the first attack, then you kill the enemy in 1 hit if he doesn't dodge it. Will this new pvp mode be the ideal form of playing (as fun is concidered) ?
@Inukai
I am glad that someone has played "league of legends" and can understand what 1-hit pvp means. It is still skill-based even though enemies die in 1 hit.
You mentioned aim. Ok lets suppose we make all attacks dodgeable skillshots.
1) the good thing is the ability to dodge all spells, attacks depending on the player skill, not on character stats.
2) the bad thing is that crowd control spells mean instant death. If 1 stun hits it will disable movement, thus all spells will become auto-hit. Even headshots are easy against immobile opponents.
With this addition "Whoever presses 1 button wins" becomes "Whoever hits with crowd control wins".
Druid means feral druid, since the other specs are against the druid lore
[ no reason to play balance druid if elemental shaman can do more dmg and shock. ]
A feral druid has limited mana, meaning that even if he spends his whole mana bar with the skills you mentioned he will deal 5% of warriors hp, because warrior gets healed from stuns, roots, etc. Also heals can only be used outside of combat, because -healing debuffs mean that you heal less dmg than enemy deals thus it is an illegal action.
@samoth
I see your point, dying without the ability to dodge attacks will be frustating.
Lets say with the addition of skillshots, you "dodge" the first attack, then you kill the enemy in 1 hit if he doesn't dodge it. Will this new pvp mode be the ideal form of playing (as fun is concidered) ?
@Inukai
I am glad that someone has played "league of legends" and can understand what 1-hit pvp means. It is still skill-based even though enemies die in 1 hit.
dropping my 2 cents here
1) true, some LOL champions such as leBlanc, karthus and annie have their killing power expand exponentially on hitting level6, but the point is that their power degrades as the game goes on. Tanks become more tanky and DPS champs start getting more damage. so the field begins to level out. Also, most ultimates have long cooldowns and/or consume huge amounts of mana (yes, I main kassadin). So that balances the gameplay. what you're proposing is that players have the ability to 1 hit all the time, which is downright frustrating, for many reasons, including newbies, lag and a mouse disconnection(I'm not kidding).
On the whole, I personally prefer games where you *can* 1 hit a person if you're just that good(quake railgun anyone?), but battles between experienced players can be longer not in terms of time, but in the number of moves needed.
In my opinion, toribash(http://www.toribash.com/) perfectly encapsulates what I'm trying to put into words. Play the game as a newb, or make a mistake and get 2 moved by pros. but continue playing, and you'll find a deep level of strategy.
Anyway, hope this helps
Bollu
1) true, some LOL champions such as leBlanc, karthus and annie have their killing power expand exponentially on hitting level6, but the point is that their power degrades as the game goes on. Tanks become more tanky and DPS champs start getting more damage. so the field begins to level out. Also, most ultimates have long cooldowns and/or consume huge amounts of mana (yes, I main kassadin). So that balances the gameplay. what you're proposing is that players have the ability to 1 hit all the time, which is downright frustrating, for many reasons, including newbies, lag and a mouse disconnection(I'm not kidding).
On the whole, I personally prefer games where you *can* 1 hit a person if you're just that good(quake railgun anyone?), but battles between experienced players can be longer not in terms of time, but in the number of moves needed.
In my opinion, toribash(http://www.toribash.com/) perfectly encapsulates what I'm trying to put into words. Play the game as a newb, or make a mistake and get 2 moved by pros. but continue playing, and you'll find a deep level of strategy.
Anyway, hope this helps
Bollu
A feral druid has limited mana, meaning that even if he spends his whole mana bar with the skills you mentioned he will deal 5% of warriors hp, because warrior gets healed from stuns, roots, etc. Also heals can only be used outside of combat, because -healing debuffs mean that you heal less dmg than enemy deals thus it is an illegal action.
I played a feral/healing pvp specced druid, and my mana was more than enough to keep myself and my team players alive, even if it gets low you have a spell to regenerate full mana. And I was rather overpowered. And by your statement "heals can only be used outside of combat" means you never played wow, ever. The basic pvp in wow revolves around teamwork and endurance unless solo pvp, where there is no team but endurance is even more important.
As a druid I even healed myself and my team-mate WHILE IN BEARFORM by making sure they always had both my heal over times ticking.
That is skill based pvp. Using the abilities of your class the right way.
I dont see how you would make a dodge for a say fireball fit well in game-play. Say there is no auto-aim on the spell. And you can just run away from the bolt, where is the fun?
This means all spells need to be instant and complicated. I still think there is no skill involved, more like spam and hope for the best. Running and jumping around doesn't count as skill in my book.
Author
@hustlerinc
in wow i care only about maximizing 1vs1 pvp power. Why care about teamwork ? arathi basin, eye of the storm is all about 1vs1 pvp.
Healing others is needless in 2vs1 pvp, you outnumber the opponent, thus you will win regardless of your actions. If your teamate dies because you didnt heal, just say "good riddance", i didnt need you anyway, you were a burden, i could have won him alone.
Since you spoke about teamplay in 2vs2 if you use heal, i as a warrior would outdps you, thus your heals will be useless, and you do no damage thus you are healing your opponents not yourself because you dont do damage while casting healing spells.
From your playstyle as a feral druid i must question your mathematical skills. Why waste 3sec in doing 40% heals when you could have done 40-50% damage? Its just math, you cant heal and damage at the same time, by using healing spells you went afk to prolong the battle a few seconds, your death would come sooner or later. Damage can heal people to full if the battle ends, Heals dont kill people when your hp bar is full. Which means that damage serves both roles of "Damage dealer" and "healer", but "healer" serves only 1 role. By playing a hybrid playstyle you are gimping yourself in being "bad at everything", other specialised classes would do things better.
You haven't given me a single reason why healing spells should be in a feral druid action bar.
You cant outheal my damage, when i am on top of you, so why use it ?
in wow i care only about maximizing 1vs1 pvp power. Why care about teamwork ? arathi basin, eye of the storm is all about 1vs1 pvp.
Healing others is needless in 2vs1 pvp, you outnumber the opponent, thus you will win regardless of your actions. If your teamate dies because you didnt heal, just say "good riddance", i didnt need you anyway, you were a burden, i could have won him alone.
Since you spoke about teamplay in 2vs2 if you use heal, i as a warrior would outdps you, thus your heals will be useless, and you do no damage thus you are healing your opponents not yourself because you dont do damage while casting healing spells.
From your playstyle as a feral druid i must question your mathematical skills. Why waste 3sec in doing 40% heals when you could have done 40-50% damage? Its just math, you cant heal and damage at the same time, by using healing spells you went afk to prolong the battle a few seconds, your death would come sooner or later. Damage can heal people to full if the battle ends, Heals dont kill people when your hp bar is full. Which means that damage serves both roles of "Damage dealer" and "healer", but "healer" serves only 1 role. By playing a hybrid playstyle you are gimping yourself in being "bad at everything", other specialised classes would do things better.
You haven't given me a single reason why healing spells should be in a feral druid action bar.
You cant outheal my damage, when i am on top of you, so why use it ?
@hustlerinc
in wow i care only about maximizing 1vs1 pvp power. Why care about teamwork ? arathi basin, eye of the storm is all about 1vs1 pvp.
Healing others is needless in 2vs1 pvp, you outnumber the opponent, thus you will win regardless of your actions. If your teamate dies because you didnt heal, just say "good riddance", i didnt need you anyway, you were a burden, i could have won him alone.
Since you spoke about teamplay in 2vs2 if you use heal, i as a warrior would outdps you, thus your heals will be useless, and you do no damage thus you are healing your opponents not yourself because you dont do damage while casting healing spells.
From your playstyle as a feral druid i must question your mathematical skills. Why waste 3sec in doing 40% heals when you could have done 40-50% damage? Its just math, you cant heal and damage at the same time, by using healing spells you went afk to prolong the battle a few seconds, your death would come sooner or later. Damage can heal people to full if the battle ends, Heals dont kill people when your hp bar is full. Which means that damage serves both roles of "Damage dealer" and "healer", but "healer" serves only 1 role. By playing a hybrid playstyle you are gimping yourself in being "bad at everything", other specialised classes would do things better.
You haven't given me a single reason why healing spells should be in a feral druid action bar.
You cant outheal my damage, when i am on top of you, so why use it ?
Dude you have obviously never played wow as a serious player. A druid outheals most damage 1vs1, And do you know what heal over times are? A druid can outheal a warrior using only his HOTS, 3 of them available 2 from normal form 1 in bearform. Combine these and you can outheal any warrior with the same gear, and then im not counting the bigger heals, instant full healths, 1.5 second regrowts that heals half, bash the warrior (stun for 3 sec) and i fit in 2 heals, full health, and I keep healing 1k every 3 seconds thanks to heal over time generated.
I guess you are striving for a 1 hit kill game because that might be the only way to kill someone for you.
Don't say heals in wow are useless and not needed, they are the most basic parts of the pvp, and 9/10 times, if you can heal, and it's a 1vs1 duel, you will most likely be able to outheal anyone.
Priests flash heal, 1.5 second full health. Druid's aswell, paladins are imba with 6 second immunity.
@hustlerinc
in wow i care only about maximizing 1vs1 pvp power. Why care about teamwork ? arathi basin, eye of the storm is all about 1vs1 pvp.
Healing others is needless in 2vs1 pvp, you outnumber the opponent, thus you will win regardless of your actions. If your teamate dies because you didnt heal, just say "good riddance", i didnt need you anyway, you were a burden, i could have won him alone.
Since you spoke about teamplay in 2vs2 if you use heal, i as a warrior would outdps you, thus your heals will be useless, and you do no damage thus you are healing your opponents not yourself because you dont do damage while casting healing spells.
From your playstyle as a feral druid i must question your mathematical skills. Why waste 3sec in doing 40% heals when you could have done 40-50% damage? Its just math, you cant heal and damage at the same time, by using healing spells you went afk to prolong the battle a few seconds, your death would come sooner or later. Damage can heal people to full if the battle ends, Heals dont kill people when your hp bar is full. Which means that damage serves both roles of "Damage dealer" and "healer", but "healer" serves only 1 role. By playing a hybrid playstyle you are gimping yourself in being "bad at everything", other specialised classes would do things better.
You haven't given me a single reason why healing spells should be in a feral druid action bar.
You cant outheal my damage, when i am on top of you, so why use it ?
The irony is that so many changes have been made over the years to the druid class in WoW - There used to be a time when no single player could kill a resto druid as heals outpaced damage and mana regen was too much. Things like purging, spell stealing at that time had some effectiveness but nowhere near what was needed. There also used to be a time when the damage outpaced the healing and the resto druid was simply roadkill (or kindling). Given I haven't been in WoW for quite a whiles now I have no idea what the current status is...but the point I am making is both N00b0dy and Hustlerinc, you could both be correct in your points of outdamaging Vs outhealing simply based on different time periods in the game.
Two healing spells for feral druids appropriate to the class - leader of the pack (combat procced passive heal) and Frenzied regeneration, both are in keeping with feral (if not lore). The resto healing spells not so helpful right in the middle of combat excepting if you get that free instant proc while in kitty form.
1 shot Pvp very much depends on tactical surprise or rapid reactions and has a valid audience of people who want to play that style, correspondingly, extended matches incorporating many different abilities also have a valid audience. What it comes down to is your game design and the style of play you wish to implement in it. For every first person shooter out there with a noob tube there is also an alternative for longer matches. Combining both elements into one game such as two snipers going ahead to head, readjusting their positions, constantly looking for the 1 shot 1 kill moment without dying to the same theme is just one example of an extended play 1 shot game.
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