Single Combat with the Sword: A Prototype (feedback requested)

im naturally atracted to swordfighting games so I gave this a try. and I liked it

it feels natural to move the sword with the mouse like that, and since this is a duel fight with the view locked at the enemy you don't have the typical problem of the genre (my own swordfighting game included) of needing the mouse for something else (rotating the view)

I found two flaws:

- attacking doesn't quite work as you described it. the instructions say 'swipe the mouse with the left mouse button held'. this would mean I need to click and hold, then drag. but that didn't quite feel like it because just by moving one pixel counts as a drag, and this sensitivity makes it impossible to get the attack the way I intend it to.

it felt more effective to move the mouse first, and mid-movement just click the mouse button

- you can spam attacks indiscriminately, and the game becomes extremely easy

was it fun? yes, it's a fresh take on swordfighting

how challenging was it? not that much after the first try. the collision detection is way too broad and generic (ie. at any angle will your sword block the enemy's) so it's really easy to turtle. not so easy to hit him, sure, but if you keep parrying eventually you get there (or if you spam attacks). I also felt we both had too much health points, but maybe that's just my own taste of a more 'life or death' scenario in swordfights.

now you mention this is a game mechanic, so this tells me this is only a small part of your game. if you have the time to improve it and add variety I'd say it's worth it.

btw it works in win8, but MS smartscreen filter didn't like the installer at all

I agreed with Chosker,

Although you can swipe a mouse to move a sword once stabbed but miss.

I fee dodgel it isn't useful as parrying, and you will miss when dodge and attack most of time, maybe because of known issue.

Also, if you intently miss an attack (stab left or right side) will make enemy stay in parry mode, and you can drag a sword into body for free hit.

Thank you both for your feedback!

First of all, I'm glad that it seems to have promise!

I find it interesting to note that, across the various fora on which I've posted prototypes of this mechanic, the reported difficulty of the combat has varied significantly, with some people finding it easy and others finding it very difficult. I suspect that most of those who find it easy are--as seems to be the case with you two--discovering and exploiting the AI's weakness to spammed attacks.

- attacking doesn't quite work as you described it. the instructions say 'swipe the mouse with the left mouse button held'. this would mean I need to click and hold, then drag. but that didn't quite feel like it because just by moving one pixel counts as a drag, and this sensitivity makes it impossible to get the attack the way I intend it to.

it felt more effective to move the mouse first, and mid-movement just click the mouse button

Hmm... Funnily enough, I had originally placed a minimum length and speed threshold on drag detection, but feedback on the version that contained that indicated a sense of lag in the input, which I think that I ascribed in part to the delay incurred by those thresholds. However, I also had a visible mouse cursor, which may have been producing a bit of dissonance between the near-one-to-one response of that cursor and the slower, interpolated response of the character.

This calls for more thought and experimentation on my part, I think.

- you can spam attacks indiscriminately, and the game becomes extremely easy

Heh, yes, I've encountered this myself, I believe. I'm not yet quite sure of how best to handle this, but do have some avenues of investigation to pursue, I think.

(For one, I want to do some research into how an actual combatant might be advised to deal with so aggressive a foe; I might also slow the player down, enforcing a bit of a pause after an attack, making the player a little vulnerable if attacking without thought.)

the collision detection is way too broad and generic (ie. at any angle will your sword block the enemy's) so it's really easy to turtle.

I'm looking into that--the collision system is something that I built myself (in short, I wanted a system designed to handle high-speed collisions), but I'm having some trouble with reliably finding appropriate collision normals for "glancing parries"--that is, situations in which the striking sword glances off of the defending sword (as in a downward strike glancing off of a near-vertical defender's sword). I'm working on it.

I also felt we both had too much health points ...

I agree, actually; I'll likely reduce the health at some point. For now, it at least reduces the amount of time between restarts. I might implement automatic restarting for the next version of the prototype; if I do, I may well reduce the health, too.

now you mention this is a game mechanic, so this tells me this is only a small part of your game.

Well spotted! You are indeed correct: I intend for combat in this game to involve scattered, discrete encounters, rather than the more usual business of wading through mobs.

btw it works in win8, but MS smartscreen filter didn't like the installer at all

I'm glad that it works, at the least.

I don't use Windows 8, and so am not familiar with the "smartscreen filter"--how is it responding? Is it like the warning screen that Windows 7 produces, encouraging the user to install only if the file is from a trusted source?

I fee dodgel it isn't useful as parrying, ...

Hmm... I have ideas for enemies that would somewhat rely on the player being able to dodge. At the moment I agree--successfully dodging is trickier than parrying, and can be tricky to attack from--but for now I think that I'll leave it in.

... and you will miss when dodge and attack most of time, maybe because of known issue.

Heh, true--although I've found that with good timing it can be a way of getting in a hit without the AI managing to parry.

Also, if you intently miss an attack (stab left or right side) will make enemy stay in parry mode, and you can drag a sword into body for free hit.

Ooh, well spotted--I'll look into that, I believe.

New version!

Again, feedback would be appreciated.

Changes:

• Various alterations to the AI; it should hopefully provide a greater challenge now.
• Improvements to the physics system; while still not perfect, it should be rather better than it was.
• Increased the damage done by hits to the head or body.
  • It was suggested that I reduce the health of the characters. I chose instead to increase damage done in order that damage done to the head or torso be significantly more dangerous than to the arm: as it now stands (and if one were attacking just one type of body part), winning takes just three blows to the head, five to the torso and a full fifteen to the arm.
• The mechanism that recognises slashes for attacks should be improved.
• Miscellaneous other changes.

Between various of the above changes:

• Turtling should no longer be as easy as it was.
• Spamming attacks should no longer be as useful as it was.
• A somewhat overpowered side-step-and-attack manoeuvre should no longer work.

Known issues:

• The graphics and sounds remain horrible!
• The full-screen bug remains. Again, use the in-game resolution-change controls to force fullscreen. (And again, I do strongly recommend playing in full-screen.)
• There are still a few "cheap" ways to win, I think.
• The mouse is still not constrained to the window.
• It's till possible to manoeuvre out of the circle of visible floor.

AARGH! I do apologise: it would seem that I've made a very silly mistake: the version posted above isn't the new version, but the same version originally posted, I believe. >_<;;;

In short, what seems to have happened was this: I use a separate directory for building the version that I'm going to post, allowing me to leave out files not relevant to the prototype, but which are in the main directory for other purposes (such as prototypes of other gameplay elements). When I went to build the new version, I simply forgot to copy over the new files, and so simply rebuilt the last version.

I'll hopefully post the actual new version a little later on...

On the plus side, the version that I intend to post tonight should have an options menu that allows one to set the mouse sensitivity.

I very much apologise. ^^;

The sword fighting is a good idea and i played the updated version of your game mechanic and this is my take on it:

Feedback:

Way way too easy but i think you already mentioned that there are cheap ways to win.

You can deflect 90% of your opponents attacks by just moving your mouse around randomly and very rarely does the A.I manage to get you and combined with the movement you can simply move left and right and move the mouse around randomly and 90% of the time it blocks the attack. I think you should make parrying require a little more precision and timing so that its less ab useable.

Attacking, despite it being reduced in this game still is spam able and works, the A.I blocks it a couple of time but it still is effective.

The A.I needs to be improved because if i position the sword in the middle then 90% of the A.I's attacks won't even touch me since all it does most of the time all the A.I does is swing left and right.

What needs to be improved:

- Parrying: Should require a bit more precision and skill to execute.

- Attacking: Should require skill and should be successful if the enemy exposes themselves to the player by missing an attack or after a successful parry.

- A.I: Should punish you if you spam or have a different move set if the player is not doing anything to much and should be more difficult to beat.

- Movement: Shouldn't be as fast as it is and should be a bit slower.

What i like:

- The execution of the idea: The idea of making sword combat mouse based and swiping the mouse while holding the left mouse key feels very satisfying.

- The Responsiveness: The sword was very responsive and felt kind of real to me because of how responsive the controls felt.

Overall:

I truly think your idea and game mechanic has a lot of potential to have great combat. You need to just keep going and improving your game mechanic as you are now by asking for feedback and improving your game. I have say though you have done a great job so far even though there are some problems here and there. Whenever i am free i will help you by playing the game to bone. Good job and keep going

Edit: I didn't see the post so sorry for this post. Hope it helps.

The real new version!

The list of changes given above should still stand, with the addition that there is now a simple options screen on which you should be able to adjust the mouse sensitivity.


@Zero_Breaker:
Thank you very much!

I'm interested to know how you feel about this version--it should hopefully address some of the issues that you mentioned (including spamming attacks and the "universal parry").

There are still, I think, a few ways to exploit the AI or input mechanism--but I'll not yet mention what they are, I think: it might be helpful to know how easy they are to discover for people who don't know the innards of the AI and input mechanisms, and haven't been facing the AI as often as I have.

Alright i managed to play the game to the bone fully. So here is what i thought about it.

Feedback:

This version is a good improvement over the other because you prevented the use moving around in one direction and spamming the slash which is you did very well by making the A.I move out of the way when that happened.

There's still a problem of spamming but its not as bad as before though, because if you spam and don't move most of the attacks are blocked by the A.I but at the same time the A.I sometimes doesn't dodge and tries to parry all of the moves which doesn't work as well and you can get a lot of hits in but as said before this happens around approximately 40% of the time rather than all the time.

There's one exploit though, if i put my mouse in this position:

If i leave my mouse in this position all of the A.I's attacks can be blocked since it doesn't move or do anything else other than attack me vertically all the time.

What needs to be improved:

- A.I: Should punish you if you do the exploit above.

- Spam: Its not as much exploitable as before but is still effective.

Overall:

The improvements are good but there are still some things needed to fix.

Ah, thank you for the feedback!

As to those two exploits, thank you for reporting them: I don't have solutions for them in mind yet (the "universal parry" that you noted above may be in part a physics issue), but have now made note of them as issues to work on.

First of all I'm not fond of sword fighting games, but I will try to be as objective as possible.

Feedback

- The sword was responsive most of the time
- Nice feeling when you manage to dodge an enemy swing with a swift move, and stick your sword in his head. Touché!
- The AI is easy, and sometimes repetitive. (she dodge more often on her right than her left)

- parrying is not precise enough
- sometimes a little rough

Recommendation

- Maybe having a stamina bar to prevent spamming or moving around too much?
- Giving to the player visual advices? (where is the attack coming from, an opening)
- I don't really know fencing, but shouldn't the movement be heavier?

Overall

It still need some polish but the feelings are here, so good job and I'm waiting for the next updates ;D

Thank you for the feedback! ^_^

- The AI is easy, and sometimes repetitive. (she dodge more often on her right than her left)

Aye, the AI does want for more work, I fear. :/

I hadn't noticed that preference for dodging to the right, I don't think--thank you for pointing it out!

At the least I do have in it mind is to vary the AI's responses a little more, but I do think that some thought--and perhaps research--is called for in improving the AI...

- parrying is not precise enough

Could you elaborate on this a little, please? Do you mean the movement of the character's arm, the physics, or perhaps something else?

- sometimes a little rough

I'm honestly not sure of what you mean here--again, would you elaborate, please? ^^;

- Maybe having a stamina bar to prevent spamming or moving around too much?

I've been thinking about such measures. A stamina bar might work, although I worry that it might make the experience a little more... "gamey", I suppose, than I was hoping for. I'm also considering having spammed attacks result in the character stumbling, recovering slowly, or otherwise leaving herself more open...

- Giving to the player visual advices? (where is the attack coming from, an opening)

Hmm... It's a thought, although again I want to reduce the number of elements that remind the player that they're playing a game... I also don't want to make it easier than it already is, for that matter! ^^;

- I don't really know fencing, but shouldn't the movement be heavier?

Do you mean the heft and momentum of the sword? I'm not sure, but I don't think so: a single-handed sword shouldn't be all that heavy, and a well-balanced one should, I think, be pretty manoeuvrable. (For one thing, don't believe the old D&D depictions of swords as heavy things.)

It still need some polish but the feelings are here, so good job and I'm waiting for the next updates ;D

Thank you very much! ^_^

I will try to be more precise :D

Quote

- parrying is not precise enough
Could you elaborate on this a little, please? Do you mean the movement of the character's arm, the physics, or perhaps something else?

Quote
- sometimes a little rough

I'm honestly not sure of what you mean here--again, would you elaborate, please? ^^;

I think it's because it seems that sometimes the movement of the arm doesn't follow the mouse.

Also when you have you sword in front of you you can parry nearly every attack without moving.

I'm sorry, I know I'm not really helpfulI here, but I can't explain precisely the problem. Maybe it's because I'm not accostumed to the pace of the game? (On a side note, If I were you, I would just say : Ok. And ignore me. So feel free to do so :) )

On a side note, If I were you, I would just say : Ok. And ignore me. So feel free to do so

Not at all: indeed, it's a good idea for me to get input from people to whom the mechanic doesn't come naturally, both because it seems likely that there will be some such players in the final user-base and because people not accustomed to a gameplay style may sometimes point out things that others miss. Thank you for taking the time to play-test this prototype. ^_^

You mention the pace of the game: does it seem faster than you like, or slower? Have you tried adjusting the mouse sensitivity? (Press "o" to toggle the options menu, in which mouse sensitivity may be set via a slider--but note that it isn't saved between sessions, as far as I recall.)

I think it's because it seems that sometimes the movement of the arm doesn't follow the mouse.

Hmm... I haven't noticed that myself, but I should look into it: I feel that it's important that a game mechanic like this respond intuitively.

Do you find this to be specific to attacks, parries or both?

Also when you have you sword in front of you you can parry nearly every attack without moving.

Ah, yes, that's a long-standing bugbear that I'm aware of, and have been fighting. :/

You mention the pace of the game: does it seem faster than you like, or slower? Have you tried adjusting the mouse sensitivity? (Press "o" to toggle the options menu, in which mouse sensitivity may be set via a slider--but note that it isn't saved between sessions, as far as I recall.)

I would say that the parrying is a bit too slow, and the attack is fine. I adjusted the mouse sensitivity (quicker, around 20) and I found it better like that.

Do you find this to be specific to attacks, parries or both?

For the parries essentialy. The attack often respond fine.

Ah, yes, that's a long-standing bugbear that I'm aware of, and have been fighting. :/

Good luck then :)

I would say that the parrying is a bit too slow, and the attack is fine. I adjusted the mouse sensitivity (quicker, around 20) and I found it better like that.

Aah, I see--thank you. Mouse sensitivity can be somewhat specific to each player's device, but I have increased the default value to twenty.

Good luck then

Thank you! I think that I've made some good progress on that, actually--hopefully the next version will have a somewhat cannier and more dangerous opponent.

New version!

Note that, due to some of the changes that I've made (in particular work on integrating this mechanic with the main game), the prototype no longer waits for you to press space in order to start; however, the AI shouldn't attack immediately (unless you do), so you should have a moment in which to find your bearings.

Changes:

• Various improvements to the AI--for one, the "universal parry" should no longer work.
• A maximum "mouse speed" has been instituted.
  • I was concerned about people with fast controllers being able to push the sensitivity to maximum, and thus be able to attack fast enough that the AI has insufficient time in which to react.
  • Please let me know if this maximum is too low!
• "Small" attacks--those started too close to the centre-line, more or less--now do no damage.
• The game now defaults (more or less intentionally, that is) to windowed mode, but should be more playable that way. However, see the next point.
• Changes to the options menu:
  • Fullscreen may be toggled and the resolution set (from a set of only three options at the moment, I'm afraid) in the "graphics" tab.
  • Mouse sensitivity may be set in the "combat" tab.
  • Key-bindings may be changed in the "controls" tab.
• Some additional sounds, and some changes to which sounds are played and when.
• Minor "flinch" animations; I should likely make their motions slightly larger, however.
• Miscellaneous other changes.

Known issues:

• There's at least one type of attack which--if successfully pulled off--the AI has little answer for.
• Some physics issues remain.
• Game options are not stored between sessions--with the possible exception of the key bindings, which might successfully store.

The new prototype aside, I have a more general concern regarding which I could use advice: I'm uncertain of how well this mechanic is going to fit into the game for which I'm creating it.

The game flow that I'm trying to create for my "levels" is one of exploration and some puzzle-solving, involving first-person exploration of the game environments, punctuated at times by dangerous combat encounters. In a single level the player might have, say, one to five combat encounters.

If you've played the old combat-inclusive gamebooks--Fighting Fantasy or Lone Wolf, for example--think of those: such gamebooks are one of the inspirations for this project.

This brings me to my two main problems: First, since combat doesn't happen often, this mechanic is somewhat fast-paced and unusual, and the main gameplay moves somewhat more slowly, I'm worried that players won't manage to gain proficiency with this mechanic, and thus founder against tougher encounters. Second, I'm concerned that it will feel out of place, and damage the flow of the game.

I've considered putting together something more puzzle- or turn- based, but thus far am having trouble coming up with something satisfying; in particular, turn- or puzzle- based mechanics seem to me to tend to lack the sense of urgency and danger that I'd like combat to have.

(There is one mechanic that I'm aware of that would likely work--and indeed which was an inspiration for this mechanic--that being the mechanic used by the Quest for Glory games. However, I'm very hesitant to simply copy that. :/)

Can't believe i missed this update but I've played it and here are my thoughts on it:

What i liked:

- A.I is more challenging and most of the time deflects/parries your attacks.

- The sword control is more improved especially thanks to options.

- Spamming while possible, is very unlikely to happen consecutively.

What needs to be improved:

- The Parry exploit, i found a new one:

If i stay in this position all attacks can be blocked.

Overall:

This mechanic is coming along smoothly and is progressing very well. If you get the exploit/exploits fixed then this mechanic should work as intended.

Advice:

I know a little bit about gamebooks so sorry if get things wrong and please correct if i am wrong.

I think i know what you mean with you being concerned with this mechanic out of place. What i would say is, make the mechanic and exploration work smoothly along with each other.

Make the exploration with a camera angle that is similar to the combat and make the exploration kind of similar to a dungeon crawler like Phantasy Star so that say when a door opens and an enemy appears make the screen fade to a different battle arena which you fight with the monster/monsters and i would suggest making the movement more slower and more tight during the battle.

Also i think you should add more things such as spells,skills etc. which would make it more RPG-like and say to select items or skills you have this Kingdom Hearts like menu . So say you're in battle and you want to use a magic spell.

You have three bars at the top of your screen:

1)Magic.

2)Item.

3)Skill.

And you're fighting and want to use one of three commands, you could do it like this:

- Press 1 to open up magic.

- Use the mouse wheel to select one of the spells you want to use.

- Press 1 to confirm it.

Also you could have a dice that rolls each match to get a bonus stat upgrade such as ATK or increase the chances to find rare items that may be hidden in some of the places you visit.

The only thing is i don't how exploration will work in your game.

Thank you for the feedback, and I'm glad that it is indeed improving!

The Parry exploit, i found a new one:

Gah, you're right--the "universal parry" is starting to look "eternal" as well as "universal"!

In all seriousness, I'm hoping that this might be fixed by means of a minor adjustment; we'll see once I look into it a little more deeply (I've been looking at elements of the larger game, and a file-writing issue, of late).

Thank you too for your advice. While I think that what you suggest might work, I feel that it would also take me rather far from what I intend for this game.

In short, exploration is intended to be the "meat" of the game, with levels of varied types: some might revolve around traversal challenges (jumping, climbing, finding routes, etc.); others might be full of traps; some might focus on adventure-game puzzles (deciphering text, puzzle minigames, etc.); and so on. There would likely be those that mix various types to one degree or another. Some might be short and simple, others might be long and difficult.

Combat is intended to be relatively infrequent--say an average of three encounters per level.

Inspired by advice on another forum, my current thought is to try to have the more active sorts of exploration--traversal challenges, traps, etc.--include more enemies, and those that involve heavier puzzle-solving include few to none.

However, if I do end up finding that this combat mechanic doesn't work with the exploration mechanics, it's more likely to be the combat mechanic that's changed than the exploration: the latter is the core of my game, I feel.

To give an example of the intended flow, a hypothetical level might run something like this:

~

In the midst of a forest, you've discovered a strange, seemingly-forgotten structure buried beneath the earth; all that it bares to the world above is a single, plant-shrouded doorway of weathered worked stone set into a small mound, opening onto a stairway leading into the earth.

You descend. The stairway opens onto a long hallway, faintly lit by phosphorescent mosses; there are two doors to either side, all closed, and a single, open door ahead. Inset into the dusty marble floor is a circle of some other stone, and a sigil inscribed within it in brass. Passing through the open door, you discover that the next chamber has caved in: the ceiling above has fallen, burying the room in great boulders, and exposing a dark hole above the suggests a second floor. With some difficulty, you find a path over the boulders, climbing towards the hole. Beyond, you encounter another door, this one held fast by strange glowing runes. To either side are niches in which stand statues bearing staffs of engraved brass. You take one of the staffs--it might be useful, and looks nice, then turn your attention to the door.

Looking closer, you find that the runes move to your touch. Experimenting a little, you find that there's a pattern to their movements. Remembering the entrance hall, you prompt the runes to follow the course of the sigil in the floor. As the last rune slips into place, the patterns shines brightly--and the door slides open!

The chamber beyond is small, and contains only a single item of interest: a large tome resting on a time-worn wooden lectern. You pick up the book, open it; most of it has been lost to unknown centuries of disintegration and bookworm, but one remaining page stands out: a mention of a place of power, a clue towards your greater goal. You take the page, leaving the crumbling book behind, and turn to leave.

As you reach the entrance hall, you find that one of the side-doors has opened, and before you now stands a stone guardian. There is no evading it--you must fight! The battle is long--the guardian's stone hide takes little damage from your sword--but at last you prevail, and at last regain the light of day. With your new clue in mind, you set out again...

~

Glad to know its going well :) . Oh and i think i may know how to fix the parry mechanic, wouldn't it be a better idea to have button that puts you in a block stance, but still makes you vulnerable and to parry an attack you have to be in the block stance and swipe the mouse forward while the enemy attacks?

The enemy could have a block breaker if the player is always blocking. Also i think that when a battle with an enemy starts it should go to a separate battle arena and after the battle ends it could go back to the exploration so that the meaty core of the game isn't changed due to the combat.