In some ways, I agree with Bishop here.

If I''m following his logic correctly, essentially he''s saying that a designer should have a broad background of knowledge upon which to derive the setting of a game. Think for a moment of Picasso...while he''s best known as an abstract artist, he had to become a master of classical style painting first. I have little interest (or respect) in artists who have not mastered the fundamentals of their chosen medium and skip straight to their "creative expression". It would be like watching someone doing modern dance who never bothered to take the time to build up the physical foundation for coordinated muscular movement, and did not at least become very good at some kind of more traditional dance (whether it be flamenco, ballet, tap dancing or whatever). Or it would be like reading an author who thought that history, sociology, grammar and syntax were a waste of time and wanted the world to know about his ultra-cool l33t story of a giant Robot saving a formerly ravaged Neo-Tokyo from an evil tyrannical government (which is evil just because). Generally speaking, skills don''t grow in a vacuum.

So I agree that many game designs are cooked up in settings which don''t require a background which is logically consistent. So this too bothers me. Not so much because designers ARE making games in sci-fi or fantasy settings, but because game designers seem to have little creative imagination in coming up with settings which make sense within the context of that game world. Even if one argues that fictional stories need not be realistic and should be about gameplay or about storytelling I argue that a logically consistent setting is more powerful because humans in general look for and need consistency and causal relationships. If you have an epic fantasy world which has little explanation for what''s going on and why things are the way they are, then our sense of plausible denial goes down the drain. We now think that it''s just fantasy, and not relatable to our own lives. And that''s the key. Obviously the Lord of the Rings trilogy is fantasy and not realistic, and yet the background is so fleshed out, and the history so finely detailed, that we the reader feel that it''s real and the world that these characters exist in is real...so we are better able to relate to what transpires.

For example, most game worlds in sci-fi or fantasy settings simply have races or groups at war with each other with little explanation of why these groups are at war. What is the cultural background of these races? Why do they have the warfare style preferences they do? Most seem to be just hackneyed regurgitations of what designers have seen before. Very little is ever done to truly flesh out the history, culture, socio-politics or other "real-world" concerns that a game world would have. Why? Partially I think because designers feel such information is irrelevant to gameplay, and partially because designers don''t want to be bothered with the time required to do the research or thinking involved to make a logically consistent world seem plausible and real.

So on one hand I agree with Bishop in that designers should go back and study many fundamental humanities elements to hone their skills as writers and world builders. OTOH though, I don''t necessarily agree that designers should diversify just for the sake of diversification of genres or because everyone and their mother is making a sci-fi or fantasy game (especially if 90% of them have worlds which seem...well, fake).

quote:Original post by Dauntless
OTOH though, I don''t necessarily agree that designers should diversify just for the sake of diversification of genres or because everyone and their mother is making a sci-fi or fantasy game (especially if 90% of them have worlds which seem...well, fake).

They should diversify into a field that inspires them. But unfortunately, the vicious circle which is a predominant driving force is to draw inspiration from, well, you guessed it: elves, goblins, etc.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that most individuals in the game development industry should not diversify into any other genre or topic other than elves or goblins, spaceships or robots, because they are simply not qualified to produce any other type of material. You should and must stick with what you''re obsessed with. Since the obsession obviously does lie with said subject matter, that''s where the efforts should be focused.

Unfortunately though, as Dauntless has pointed out, if you''re only obsessed with elves and goblins (or similar material) then what is the cultural and life experience that lies as the underlying motivating inspiration? If that inspiring force was truly strong and deep, then the designer would, in reality, likely do away with the fantasy subject matter altogether and simply build on the original inspiring material.

quote:Original post by bishop_pass
In fact, I would go so far as to say that most individuals in the game development industry should not diversify into any other genre or topic other than elves or goblins, spaceships or robots, because they are simply not qualified to produce any other type of material. You should and must stick with what you're obsessed with. Since the obsession obviously does lie with said subject matter, that's where the efforts should be focused.

I agree here too in a way. It's unfortunate that there seems to be an incestuous breeding of ideas for game settings in the industry. I remember reading a recent issue of PC Gamer in which a reader decried how Deus Ex 2 had a monster that looked almost exactly like a monster that's appeared in Doom 3 shots. The reader complained about the lack of originality in many games, and the editor agreed. The trouble I think to why so many designers are obsessed with a limited genre selection is due in great deal because they don't understand the peripheral or underlying elements/themes of a story.

Take for example the Matrix series. Many people could have cared less about the epistemological, metaphysical, existentialist or deterministic philosophical questions that the movie raised. Indeed, many just call it psycho-babble BS, and watched it pretty much for the cool special effects and fight scenes.

I'm greatly looking forward to the movie "The Last Samurai" for a couple reasons. First off, it's about time someone did a movie set in the Meiji Restoration period instead of the Sengoku Jidai period. Secondly, the premise of two warriors from different cultures learning from each other sounds interesting. And thirdly, the premise of examining a time frame of major social and cultural change (which is a major theme of the movie) is intriguing. The director (who has also done Glory and Legends of the Fall) has also impressed me in the amount of research he's done for the movie. So while I'm sure many people will go to see the movie who want to see a "guns vs. swords" or a "Civil War hero vs. Japanese Samurai" flick, to me the real fascinating part is the underlying theme.

How to get people more interested than the superficial flash? To be honest, I've no idea how. While I don't consider myself a smart person, I do consider myself a very curious person. I may not know a lot of answers, but I sure like to ask questions and dig deeper and deeper. So that's why I'm interested in more than big flashy spaceships, giant anthropomorphic robots, weird sci-fi weapons, bad-ass orcs, or fatalistic/nihilistic elves.

quote:
Unfortunately though, as Dauntless has pointed out, if you're only obsessed with elves and goblins (or similar material) then what is the cultural and life experience that lies as the underlying motivating inspiration? If that inspiring force was truly strong and deep, then the designer would, in reality, likely do away with the fantasy subject matter altogether and simply build on the original inspiring material.

Well, I think that it's possible to borrow ideas from one genre or historical setting and transplant them into a different genre. For example, I liked Dune's Luddite atmosphere in which technology seemed anachronistic and human potential was seen as the ultimate weapon. Moreover, Herbert explained why humans disdained computers (there was a war because AI had been developed which was why Mentats came to be) and even why anyone would bother learning melee combat skills in the future (the personal shields applied more resistance the more kinetic that was imparted to it...thereby requiring the re-introduction of melee combat).

Such a story could have been done in a more realistic period, but I think the story turned out fine as it was. As another example, in my own game idea, I borrowed a huge amount of inspiration from the American Civil War spliced together with the historical troubles that Great Britain fared during its "Colonial War" period (about 1870-1900 ranging in conflicts from the Crimean War, the Boer War, the Zulu Wars, the Sudan campaign, the Indian uprisings like the Sepoy rebellion etc etc.). I didn't want a huge black and white situation with the desperate and noble rebels fighting back the big nasty "Imperium". It is sci-fi based, but I (hopefully) put in enough cultural and historical background for all the factions that the world seems just as grey and confusing as our own.



[edited by - dauntless on November 22, 2003 2:13:55 PM]

quote:Original post by bishop_pass
Unfortunately though, as Dauntless has pointed out, if you''re only obsessed with elves and goblins (or similar material) then what is the cultural and life experience that lies as the underlying motivating inspiration? If that inspiring force was truly strong and deep, then the designer would, in reality, likely do away with the fantasy subject matter altogether and simply build on the original inspiring material.

GREAT, things going to get clearer and that''s i have want to say in my two post, bishop you GET the point!!!
but this problem is well known in arts, artist called "MIMESIS"
mimesis occur when you have strong feeling towards something and use a simulacra as a totem to remind this feelings but without understanding the inner source of the things
the mimetic person want to find the feelings and the experiance by using superficial form of this experiance confuse with the experiance itself

when you see beginner in drawing, you see that they try to get all detail firstly and had hard time to go beyond the form because they don''t know the basic which give birth to the form, for example anatomy for body position, without anatomy you can only done a limted set of position because you don''t know how a pose come from, you are stuck with mimicking because the only way to have more pose is to mimic the model again, but if you understand anatomy then you can build even a position you don''t even know, all expert build from general to detail (even if you see them do the contrary, because they do it in their mind you can''t see it)

in video games it''s the same, we have mimic which don''t know where their fascination came from, the only way is to learn from someone which already know about it or find it by experimentation and reflexion (abstraction)

elves and goblin are not part of the problem
they are only symptom of an experiance
we could use elves for another experiance and it would lead to new settings (let the form challenge the content)
or use the underlign of goblins to build a new setting WITHOUT goblins (let the content challenge the form)

in art school, we don''t learn how to do beautiful image but to conjuring meaning (which is the underlign of beauty, meaning in the art sense then...)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
be good
be evil
but do it WELL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I tend to think that art that is purely fantasy draws upon the abtract, and represents the mental reaches that we as a people make.

The exaggerated facial features of a goblin can just as easily be compared with comic book heroes. It''s a more direct expression of what a person wants to express. Is there such a difference with trying to get what''s in your imagination on the canvas, and trying to make a real world object look like a real world object? What''s important is what you are trying to convey in your art, not what you are trying to accomplish with your technique. If you are trying to make something look realistic, do it for purposes of effect, not so that someone will say, "Oh, yeah, that does look like the real thing."

Games can take many forms, at least two of which are simulating something from the real world and coming up with a unique universe based on enough similarities with how human emotions work to give us something to relate with (after all, we aren''t making movies for dogs or dolphins, even though we might place human characteristics on them for purposes of the art we are creating). Games can also take something real world and put a fantasy spin on it, and vice versa.

I say make whatever you want to make. Ignore the influx of what you are seeing so much of. You have your own ideas. Express what you want, and don''t get sucked into what the crowd is doing. If you see everyone else drawing elves, and you have your own idea of what you would like an elf to look like, then do it. Or maybe you have a completely different idea. That''s ok too.

Can anyone really say what art is for, except for what you decide to do with it?

The problem with an obsession with a particular setting, is that it tends to make you a one trick pony.

Suppose you're obsessed with, for the sake of an example, westerns.

You might be able to make the best western game *ever*. But if westerns aren't bringing the punters in, no one will ever know or care. You might notice that games involving robotic elves vs. goblins in spaceships are the current Big Thing, but since you're too caught up in your obsession with westerns, any attempt at designing a game about anything else is going to suck.

A really good game designer is not *obsessed* with any particular setting, but has the sense and discipline to make sure that whatever the setting he chooses is, it is as well researched and developed as it needs to be.

[edited by - Sandman on November 22, 2003 7:40:10 PM]

Fantasy games aren''t the problem. What about games set in accurate time periods? Like a Greek RPG where everything is as accurate as possible, and you get to fight some of the famous battles described in mythology? I think that concept could be a solution that balances fantasy and realism, what do you guys think about this type of game?

Scott Simontis
e-mail:ageofscott@comcast.net
AIM:ssimontis