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Gdnet Black (Alpha)


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#21 superpig   Staff Emeritus   -  Reputation: 1825

Posted 11 January 2011 - 01:31 AM

The site masthead seems not to wrap on 1024x768 now. I've also collapsed down the userpicture in the top left to reclaim some vertical space. You know what you look like.

Richard "Superpig" Fine - saving pigs from untimely fates - Microsoft DirectX MVP 2006/2007/2008/2009
"Shaders are not meant to do everything. Of course you can try to use it for everything, but it's like playing football using cabbage." - MickeyMouse


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#22 Programmer One   Members   -  Reputation: 746

Posted 11 January 2011 - 02:23 AM

This black theme (albeit still work in progress) is total, absolute, complete and utter crap. Yet, it is waaay better than the standard theme. :D

#23 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 11 January 2011 - 07:42 AM

Fixed.

I'm actually building my own custom .css to replace my old one in stylish for the site. The padding, margin, and font-size elements are by far my biggest complaints on the new site.

When I first started, I noticed lots of <div ... padding: 5px ... > <div ... margin-top=4px ... > < div ... height="way too much">content</div></div></div>. A few items had 20+ pixels of useless padding around blocks. The lines of text ads are one such offender.

Just pruning those down gives me a much more readable site. The white space bothered my eyes much more than the color scheme.


Can you let me know when you finish it? I'd be curious to at least try your new one once ur finished :).

#24 MrDaaark   Members   -  Reputation: 3555

Posted 11 January 2011 - 07:43 AM

There is way too much contrast with all the hard blacks and whites on the screen as it is. There is a lot of eye strain for me. I don't know why 98% of the web insists on using the darkest and brightest possible shades all the time.

I think a theme should be based on neutral gray. It would work in both light and dark viewing conditions. Use a site like Kuler.Adobe.com to help come up with nice color schemes that are easy on the eye.

http://kuler.adobe.com/#themes/search?term=tag%3Agrey <-

#25 MaulingMonkey   Members   -  Reputation: 1556

Posted 11 January 2011 - 05:25 PM

I'm trying to address the column widths in the forum index with CSS rules... this is a bit hard because they don't really respect max-width on the TH elements, which seems to be the one place to easily set these.

Here's my best attempt so far, which relies on :nth-child since the views and replies columns don't have individual styles for me to latch onto -- something that can likely be fixed?

(Dropped into the top of black-theme.css)
th.col_f_topic {
    width: 650px;
}
th.col_f_starter {
    width: 140px;
}
th:nth-child(4) {
    width: 50px;
}
th:nth-child(5) {
    width: 50px;
}
th.col_f_post {
    width: 270px;
}

This prevents a lot of columns from taking up multiple lines when they don't need to in the widest view. It's far from perfect, but I think it's an improvement. Handling it directly in the HTML might work better -- the actual column sizes don't seem to have a direct relationship to what I'm actually specifying. Works in Chrome. IE keeps crashing when trying to open the local copy of the gdnet page I'm testing it on though, not a good sign :(

EDIT: Before and After

EDIT: Another problematic area: The comments section of blogs is grey-on-grey. Example:
http://www.gamedev.net/blog/23/entry-2249112-48-hours-later-moving-forward/ (no CSS fix (yet?))

#26 MarkS   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 882

Posted 11 January 2011 - 05:38 PM

Ditto on leiavoia's eye strain comments! Another site I frequent, www.ocforums.com has this as the only skin and I can only be on the site for a few minutes at a time before the headaches start.
Thanks for making it optional, and I'll pass.

#27 dwarfsoft   Moderators   -  Reputation: 1217

Posted 12 January 2011 - 01:34 AM

This CSS is definitely a godsend. The comments of Blogs definitely needs to be modified though (as mentioned before for http://www.gamedev.net/blog/23/entry-2249112-48-hours-later-moving-forward/ )

#28 leiavoia   Members   -  Reputation: 960

Posted 12 January 2011 - 02:02 AM

Ditto on leiavoia's eye strain comments! Another site I frequent, www.ocforums.com has this as the only skin and I can only be on the site for a few minutes at a time before the headaches start.
Thanks for making it optional, and I'll pass.

IT BURNS!

For the truly desperate, here's another tip:

If you use Firefox, you can View->PageStyle->NoStyle to completely disable server-provided stylesheets. On an unwieldy forum like this it may not be very useful, but for sites that make you want to rip your eyes out it makes it readable at least.

#29 Wan   Members   -  Reputation: 1366

Posted 12 January 2011 - 05:55 AM

(edit by Gaiiden)
Please everyone if you notice issues with the black theme, do not use the Feedback tab, but report them here so everyone can see them, offer corrections and superpig can also have all issues in one place for making edits to the theme.

Oops sorry, didn't know there was a thread. :/

#30 superpig   Staff Emeritus   -  Reputation: 1825

Posted 12 January 2011 - 06:25 AM

Front page news and journal comments are now readable.

Richard "Superpig" Fine - saving pigs from untimely fates - Microsoft DirectX MVP 2006/2007/2008/2009
"Shaders are not meant to do everything. Of course you can try to use it for everything, but it's like playing football using cabbage." - MickeyMouse


#31 MaulingMonkey   Members   -  Reputation: 1556

Posted 12 January 2011 - 07:19 AM

I went and wrote a user stylesheet for myself for ipboard. Still a bit buggy, and written as a bunch of horrible !important directives and probably chrome dev-branch specific. Posting it in case anyone else wants a rough idea of what to override. Still has a big rough edge in the reply form bits, and probably elsewhere: Custom.css . Doubt it'd be a good idea to drop in directly, but hey, you might like it ;)

Among other things, it kills custom text colors and sizes by posters. Sidesteps the whole "some fool used the same grey text in their post as the background, for no good reason" thing.

EDIT: Alternative version with a fake downrate button to keep my fellow negative nancy's cold hearts warm at night: troll-custom.css - now with screenshot!

#32 Krohm   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 3167

Posted 12 January 2011 - 08:06 AM

Black text on white background: This is the highest contrast you can get and the easiest to read... or so some people claim. This works good for print but not web. Obviously, the bright white is not popular around here and that's because were talking about positive (emissive) color. Translation: it burns your eyes.

Agreed.


Compared to the "light" skin, I also see the black one easier. However, I'd still tone down a bit the black bg and make the text lighter.
WRT my previous post, I think the black version features more contrast already but text is still more difficult than it used to be.
I wonder if it's the font itself, it seems to be more condensed. ?_?

#33 MaulingMonkey   Members   -  Reputation: 1556

Posted 12 January 2011 - 08:19 AM

The light skin text was recently condensed in line spacing... doesn't seem to affect the dark theme yet/currently

Relevant Post

#34 Calexus   Members   -  Reputation: 245

Posted 12 January 2011 - 08:27 AM

Awesome!

Much appreciated, a lot easier on the eyes... but maybe it's a bit to dark?

Anyway far better then the default plasma-beam skin.

:)




Exitus Acta Probat

#35 way2lazy2care   Members   -  Reputation: 782

Posted 12 January 2011 - 08:28 AM

I found a bug on the black version of the site.

If you look at the "What do you think of the new site" thread in the thread list page. When you hover over it the link to the last page shifts to a new line every time you hover or mouse away. It's pretty annoying if that's what you are trying to click. Especially when you use odd paths with your mouse to get from point A to B. It took me 2 minutes to click the last page :'(

#36 Luckless   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1832

Posted 12 January 2011 - 09:44 AM


Ditto on leiavoia's eye strain comments! Another site I frequent, www.ocforums.com has this as the only skin and I can only be on the site for a few minutes at a time before the headaches start.
Thanks for making it optional, and I'll pass.

IT BURNS!


See, and this is where you show your 'qualifications' to break down horribly.

The colour scheme at ocforums has always been very easy on my eyes, and has allowed me to read it for hours on end. The whole point of a Black theme is to enable people with eyes more sensitive to light than average to still easily enjoy a site's content. Something like your suggested #DDD as a background shade is still far too bright for me to read off of comfortably for extended periods of time with a large back lit screen.

Right now, this reply box is actually white on black, and while it is a little annoying, it isn't too bad for the time I need to read off it. However, there are two large black bars to either side of it. If they were gray or white, I would already be developing a headache.

Your posts in this thread are the equivalent of suggestions for more comfortable thread rise and run lengths for the front steps to a building, and you are ignoring that some of us are actually looking for a proper wheel chair ramp. If you actually care about developing websites that are highly accessible, I strongly suggest you get it out of your head that there is any kind of a 'one size fits all' method you can take.



On a side note, for people like me the largest issue tends to come from large fields of very light colours which project large amounts of light into the eyes, especially on the edges of vision. A bright image boxed in a dark colour can go a long way to reducing the eye strain and headaches.
Old Username: Talroth
If your signature on a web forum takes up more space than your average post, then you are doing things wrong.

#37 MarkS   Prime Members   -  Reputation: 882

Posted 12 January 2011 - 10:29 AM

See, and this is where you show your 'qualifications' to break down horribly.

The colour scheme at ocforums has always been very easy on my eyes, and has allowed me to read it for hours on end. The whole point of a Black theme is to enable people with eyes more sensitive to light than average to still easily enjoy a site's content. Something like your suggested #DDD as a background shade is still far too bright for me to read off of comfortably for extended periods of time with a large back lit screen.

Right now, this reply box is actually white on black, and while it is a little annoying, it isn't too bad for the time I need to read off it. However, there are two large black bars to either side of it. If they were gray or white, I would already be developing a headache.

Your posts in this thread are the equivalent of suggestions for more comfortable thread rise and run lengths for the front steps to a building, and you are ignoring that some of us are actually looking for a proper wheel chair ramp. If you actually care about developing websites that are highly accessible, I strongly suggest you get it out of your head that there is any kind of a 'one size fits all' method you can take.



On a side note, for people like me the largest issue tends to come from large fields of very light colours which project large amounts of light into the eyes, especially on the edges of vision. A bright image boxed in a dark colour can go a long way to reducing the eye strain and headaches.


Who are you replying to? Granted, not everyone is the same, but I know that the white text on black gives me horrible headaches.

#38 Luckless   Crossbones+   -  Reputation: 1832

Posted 12 January 2011 - 11:02 AM

I had been replying to leiavoia and the previous comment from that user where they made the suggestion of a black text on an off white/grey background.

The Black/Dark theme is for those of us who have issues reading from the default blue-white/bright theme. If you can read the default just fine, then you don't really need to come here and complain about how the dark theme is hard for you to read,... This is not the theme you are looking for. This is for the rest of us who DO have an issue with the default theme and need something different so we can comfortably read the site. (And that is why the dark theme is an option.)
Old Username: Talroth
If your signature on a web forum takes up more space than your average post, then you are doing things wrong.

#39 leiavoia   Members   -  Reputation: 960

Posted 12 January 2011 - 02:23 PM

See, and this is where you show your 'qualifications' to break down horribly.

With all due respect: First, i think your analysis is bordering on character attack, at least the way you word it. Consider toning down the holier-than-thou attitude. Second: please don't ignore the fact that i clearly stated that what i wrote was personal opinion and subjective.

Since you make me defend my 'qualifications', here they are: I currently work as a web developer for a website with an awful lot of text content. My job is to make sure it is easy to read, looks nice, and works well, because our income depends on it.

Before that i was a color analyzer in a large photo/color lab. I spent most of every day for six years doing color correction and darkroom work. I have a very acute sense of color from doing that. I also learned a lot about environmental and biological factors that can affect your sense of color.

None of this means that my opinions are The Most Right. My point is: it's okay to have a differing opinion, but please don't talk down to other people like they're blubbering idiots.

The colour scheme at ocforums has always been very easy on my eyes, and has allowed me to read it for hours on end.

And that's the opinion part. And that's fine. Everybody sees differently.

The whole point of a Black theme is to enable people with eyes more sensitive to light than average to still easily enjoy a site's content.

My eyes are quite sensitive. That's why i posted in this thread in the first place. I would also like to have a dark theme!

Your posts in this thread are the equivalent of suggestions for more comfortable thread rise and run lengths for the front steps to a building, and you are ignoring that some of us are actually looking for a proper wheel chair ramp. If you actually care about developing websites that are highly accessible, I strongly suggest you get it out of your head that there is any kind of a 'one size fits all' method you can take.

From an administrative point of view, consider this: newcomers to the site won't know there are multiple skins available. They'll just plop in and judge the site as-is. I think the default theme at least should be as close to "one size fits all" as possible. Certainly not wrong to have alternates though.

The Black/Dark theme is for those of us who have issues reading from the default blue-white/bright theme. If you can read the default just fine, then you don't really need to come here and complain about how the dark theme is hard for you to read,... This is not the theme you are looking for. This is for the rest of us who DO have an issue with the default theme and need something different so we can comfortably read the site. (And that is why the dark theme is an option.)

But i DO have issues with the default theme. Again, that's why i started reading this thread to begin with. I would still like a dark theme myself. (My text editor and terminals use a light on dark theme, for instance). I just don't think the current color selections are any improvement over the light theme, that's all. With some tweeks it would be good.


A few other observations on color, garnered from slaving away for years in front of a machine doing color correction:
  • Environment can affect your sense of color. If you normally have your room lights on, turn them off (or vice-versa). Some people have a hard time staring at a screen without ambient light in the room. Some people need darkness. (I'm going to guess that most people that prefer the dark theme are also working in a dark room).
  • Placement of ambient lights in the room can affect your sensitivity to light. I personally find that lights in front of the computer or above it become painful. Light behind me is okay.
  • Time of day affects your sensitivity to color. See if you feel differently about the light/dark themes in the morning versus late at night. Usually eyes are more sensitive and tired at night.
  • Caffeine will dull your sense of color.
  • Amount of time spent looking at the screen will take it's toll. If you feel overly light sensitive, try getting regular "light breaks", especially if you work in a dark room.
  • Exposure to certain colors will dull or skew your perception of other colors. That's why brightly colored backgrounds are never a good idea for reading. (some websites still don't understand this!)
  • Certain colors or color combinations cause physical pain! High-chroma blue/red combinations are the ultimate sins, IMO. I also note that high-chroma colors on neutral grey will also do this. If they are on white or black, they seem to be fine. Stark white/black (zebra stripe) can be painful for some.
  • Your perception of color will change naturally over time. If asked to identify a specific color, even trained experts will not (usually) be able to pick the exact same shade the following day!


#40 dwarfsoft   Moderators   -  Reputation: 1217

Posted 12 January 2011 - 04:52 PM

Just wanted to point out that for some reason the Black theme doesn't seem to work on the XNA 4.0 Workshop forum: http://www.gamedev.n...p-introduction/ .. or at least for me I get dark grey on darker grey... I would have thought the post would have the same classes that the CSS could already handle... Looking at the source it seems to have thrown in a "<span style='color: #1C2837'>" at the beginning of the post, could be related to copy-pasting into the Post box (as formatting seems to be preserved).

For things like this I can only assume that posting in such a way may break visibility in other themes (unless we can ban the span, which I thought was already banned from posting)




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