Magic advancement system

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24 comments, last by powerneg 9 years, 11 months ago

Just blame it on my poor comprehension skills and over-literalness, but I'm afraid I do not know exactly what part of the magic cycle you are wanting input into; the acquisition of the spells, the advancement of said spells, or the prevention of potential spell usage by the player. all were mentioned, but you rather emphasized one.

If prevention, I.E., how to keep weak players from using strong spells in an organic, less arbitrary way:

If players are drawing energy from the environment into themselves to cast spells, then that is a lot of energy being contained in a rather frail human body. If the spell costs, say, 500 manna, but your character has a manna cap of say 350, than that player shouldn't be able to hold it inside for very long, and, upon releasing the spell, damage would be done to her body. Also, the effort of holding in too much energy should cause her focus to waver somewhat, causing a decrease in either potency or accuracy. Or, you could have it that the chance of successfully casting a spell is ratio of player level over spell level, or some other such equation.

As for Advancement, I.E., increasing the effectiveness of spells as the player levels up/progresses through the world:

I've always been partial to small bonuses that cumulatively increase as one gets better at the skill in question. For example, all fire magic might have an innate, albeit weak, armor piercing capability, say 2%. As the player gets better at fire magic, that small armor piercing will increase, to 3%, then 4%, 5%, etc., eventually getting more effective, especially if you have other such tiny perks, say a burn status effect which will also increase.

As for actually getting better at the magic, you could have it increase with usage, and with finding books that advance that specific magic.


a fairly basic idea that might be interesting food for thought could be a means of using the loot from certain enemies as a means to 'transmute' (to some degree) reagants that would be forever with the player from that point.

I absolutely adore this idea, but I feel that it really depends on whether your game is single-player or online, and, if single-player, how linear the game is. I think it would lack its appeal if you get these items from bosses that you have to fight to advance the game, because then it would just be a tedious complication of gaining power from killing bosses when you you usually do that anyways, through a boss having a 100% chance of dropping a strong sword, or was guarding the morphball, etc.

As for actually acquiring the spells in the first place, again it rather depends on whether your game is online, linear single-player, or more open-world single-player.

In Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, there are a couple of magic spells (though to be fair, they were not all that useful, and were not the focus of combat), which you could perform. You either discovered them by accidentally doing the requisite movements to cast them, or by buying a scroll which told you how to perform them. Another example of such a system was Legend of Legaia. In it, your attacks were based on a small queue in which you placed in any order your actions(in this case, high-low punches and kicks I believe). If the order and combination of actions conformed to a specific special move, then your character performed that move instead of the actually moves you placed. Depending on how the player actually casts spells in your game, you might do something similar. If the player casts spells by combining power words, than the player might accidentally discover a new spell by experimenting with the order or composition of the words, or by finding books that have a spell already mapped out for them.

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I once put a lot of thought into a rune-based spell system. The general idea was that it was an actual language that described the movements and transformations of energy. The sorcerer would have a number of various pools of magic, e.g. fast magic (non-regenerating), slow magic (non-regenerating) and magic source (regenerating). They would move magic from their own source (or an external source of magic) to their fast or slow magic pools so they could actually cast a spell. Then they would need to transform it for the desired effect and targeting and cast it. More complex spells would have multiple phases which may require filling and casting multiple times, and doing so in the correct order so that the effects hit in the correct order and timing. External sources were also tricky because they would either need to be purified or transformed so the pools could hold them safely, or the casting would need to be external (e.g. not through the sorcerer themselves) which gave more potential power but less control. As far as leveling up, the size of the pools would have a big effect. A clever sorcerer could do a lot with little, but many would just use pre-written spells rather than crafting their own. Because of the fine-grained control there would be great potential to burn yourself out (too much magic for the pools), or get bizarre backfires if you wrote your own spells.

Another idea might be that they have to learn fire from say, studying a flame and learning the properties of it. That way it forces the player to travel to obtain new skills, and you can keep the higher level stuff in areas that are harder to reach.

What would studying entail? I feel like that is the key to making the process more interesting than simply "go to place x and pick up flame y and get skill z."

The actual study would be up to you. It could be as simple as having the player simply wait while the character learns it, to having a mini-game(simple or complex) that can either take the scientific route of putting together atoms or putting together elements, or items, or even just having them actually make fire by somehow making a spark with given items, and getting that spark onto something that will keep flame. Maybe even figuring out what takes the flame best in what situations.

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If you can find a copy of it, Middle Earth Role Playing (a tabletop RPG from the 70's/early 80's) had a magic system similar to what you are describing. Every spell was a 'list' of ten effects. The more powerful a mage you were, the further up the 'list' you could cast. There were lists for elements, defense, all sorts of spells.

I'm not a big fan of spending real time 'training'. I figure my character does that off-screen somewhere. Charging money to progress may be mundane, but it serves a purpose as a money sink. A lot of games suffer from going from not enough money in the beginning to excessive amounts after the mid-game (Vtm:Bloodlines I think I could have wallpapered my haven in hundred dollar bills if I wanted...).

'Experimenting' sounds great in theory, but remember there will be a FAQ up within 48 hours that lists every possible combination and what it yields. You could go with random results from 'experimental' reagants or something (the 'seasoning' to the base recipes, if you will), but that brings its own set of headaches to the table.

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A lot of good thoughts in here; I thought I'd briefly weigh in with some games you might have a look at to see what others have done.

Recently (at PAX East) I saw a game demoed called Lichdom: Battlemage which has a crafting system for spells; i.e. you have some number of "talent points" (or components/resources, that actually wasn't clear to me) that you use to craft spells which are then bound to single-press buttons.

My favorite magic system to date is the one in Magicka i.e. you have eight magicka buttons, each one maps to an "element", and you have several "Cast it!" keys, and you get to experiment with element combos and discover spells. Some spells are gated by you getting to a certain point and finding a Book, thereafter you string together an arbitrary ordering of elements then hit Spacebar for a crazy effect (like teleporting or summoning lightning bolts from the sky...or literally crashing the game to desktop is a spell!). BUT you have many spells at your disposal right out of the gate, which you don't know your first time through, but your second time through you are immediately more dangerous. I can't emphasize how well done this system is; I really recommend trying it out. (The game is also hilarious.)

Finally, what magic discussion would be complete without a mention of Arx Fatalis? :) The stand out quality here (for better or worse) are the mouse gestures; i.e. you use the mouse to write (rough approximations of) runes on the screen and that's how you cast your spells. This game is pretty inexpensive and, admittedly, hasn't aged that well, but it's sufferable and you get a feel for the magic early on.

I hope this helps with your research. :)

I'm developing an RPG system which uses something similar - a certain kind of magic user can draw energy from his surroundings and other sources and use them + own knowledge to work a spell. My suggestion comes directly from my system.

In yours, you describe "type" and "target" spells. However, what happens if you allow a mage (as they gain power) to apply multiple "type" levels to each casting? So, a level one mage (or skill 1, whatever system you use) has one Type slot and one Target slot. But when that mage gains in power, they earn a second Type Slot. They still must pick a single target (unless you can think of a good way to utilize multiple target slots...) but they can increase the power of a spell by using multiples of the same Type (2 Fires + 1 Other == Bigger Fireball!) or even get more complicated spells by mixing Types (1 Fire + 1 Air + 1 Other == Fire Tornado?)

It has the possibility of getting very complex, but with a few ground rules on how to handle certain uncharted multiples you can handle much of that. For instance, you could have a "general energy" Type, and any time a mage tries to cast a spell which isn't actually it's own spell the extraneous Types get turned into general Energy. So, if 1 Fire + 1 Water + 1 Other wasn't actually a spell, it would turn into the spell 1 Fire + 1 Energy + 1 Other. Thus, you draw everything back down into a baseline which you make sure to define behavior for.

My only question for this system as you've defined it (with Target being a special magical sphere of its own) is how many targets you're really going to have? In my system, the target is not a magical effect in itself, and mage level basically directly corresponds to how many Spheres he can throw into his spells.

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One game to look at is Rudra no Hihou, an old Square RPG with a systematic spell language, where the player could type in *any* spell they wanted at any point. Even nonsense spells do something. There were three constraints on this, however:

  • Spells still had MP costs. Even if you know the most powerful spell, you don't want to be wasting all your MP doing 300 points of damage against 10 HP mooks.
  • You simply don't have enough data to deduce the whole language at once. You work out the system slowly, as you hear about new spells.
  • Even though there are hundreds of spells, you can only put about ten spells at a time in your spellbook.

The three of these together let the player progress in knowledge in a technically "free" system, but still limits your freedom and gives you difficult choices to make.

Two thoughts:

First, how about having each "word" in your magical language be an improvable skill? Have a vast matrix of abilities and let the player level them up organically through experience. I've often thought about this kind of "education" system, so I'm going to expound a little on an old idea of mine: Say you're casting a projected lightning bolt at a training dummy. The success of the spell would depend on your expertise in three fields: Lightning, Projected Magic, Training Dummies. Also, you would gain some practical knowledge of all three things by performing the spell, allowing you to level up as you "practice". That way, your magical performance is something like a language, where each spell is a sentence and you're leveling up your nouns and verbs to get bigger and better results, and expanding your vocabulary by encountering new kinds of magical elements and effects, as well as by learning about the sorts of things you'll be casting them on. A party's main healer might have high levels in restorative magic, projected effects and human targets, but not have much skill at healing the knight's horse (Damnit, Jim, I'm a doctor, not a veterinarian!").

Second, how about a split between theoretical and practical experience? There was an old fighting game about samurai called Kengo, and in it you boosted your fighting skills with two kinds of activity: You would train on your own and you would spar with other people. Stats like strength and agility had an actual value and a potential value. Sparring would raise your actual skill, but it could only go as high as the potential you had put into it with your solo training exercises. So if you want to boost your strength, you have to spend a few hours a day out doing exercises with a weighted sword to build the muscle. At the same time, just pumping iron wouldn't make you a stronger swordsman. You had to get in the ring and face opponents in order to integrate your training's benefits into your combat skill.

So let your wizards nerd it up in the library and in the lab, but don't let them finish reading a book and conjure a demon from the netherworld. Make them study to build the skeleton of their knowledge, then flesh it out with real-world experience.

Thanks for all of the replies - some great thoughts here.

Allow the 'level' of the mage to apply some base enhancement to each spell cast

I like this idea. It provides a familiar levelling mechanic, and adds to that some room for becoming increasingly proficient in the player's favourite spells, allowing them to customise the play style of their character.

So what exactly are you thinking of?

The idea currently is more along your second example, where each discreet region has an energy supply (but the amount isn't necessarily disclosed to the player). The player could draw from this reserve, but if they use all of the region's supply then natural resources won't respawn and potentially there will be an impact on the health of all creatures there. I liked your idea of making that a much finer system though, so there are 'hotspots' of energy (I guess tapping into Ley lines, or Henges and so on?) could provide some interesting tactical decisions. And I think Nougati's point about restricting energy-rich areas based on distance to start zones is a good one, although I did think that a mage could draw energy for a spell, but then if they were interrupted or walked at all, then that energy would dissipate, so they couldn't 'carry' that energy to another region.

I had expanded on the possibilities by providing additional targeting options;

Yes, I've started drawing up a table of effects to make sure I've got the diversity I want, and I like your Cone, Radial and Line options.

Don't confuse different aspects of the magic system that are actually rather independent

Great points. At the moment the actual casting is a very mundane affair, with clicking the 'type' icon, the 'target' icon and then clicking the destination on the map if required. I'm in two minds about if that should be made more magical - I don't want the UI to get in the way of a player making a fast, reactive spell against a sudden situation. I'm hoping that with the act of drawing the energy first, that there is a sense of power being gathered and then unleashed that would provide that 'magic' to the process.

Just blame it on my poor comprehension skills and over-literalness, but I'm afraid I do not know exactly what part of the magic cycle you are wanting input into; the acquisition of the spells, the advancement of said spells, or the prevention of potential spell usage by the player. all were mentioned, but you rather emphasized one.

All of them smile.png

I love the preventation idea where a player could actually use a spell that is too powerful for them, and there are consequences for doing that. That in itself might remove the need for any spell levels - the mana cost of the spell provides that.

having a mini-game(simple or complex) that can either take the scientific route of putting together atoms or putting together elements

This is a great idea. I don't think this should be mandatory though, I think some players may find it irritating, but it would be lovely to include for those players who want that depth.

'Experimenting' sounds great in theory, but remember there will be a FAQ up within 48 hours that lists every possible combination and what it yields

Agreed, this is the danger with any experimentation system. I don't think it's feasible to try and make it unique to each player - but it could be enjoyable for those players who don't read the spoilers.

My only question for this system as you've defined it (with Target being a special magical sphere of its own) is how many targets you're really going to have?

Going back over my notes (I've been making this game for over ten years, so I do forget things smile.png), I originally had a 'verb' and 'noun' system. So the nouns had things like Self, Other, Earth, Fire etc, and the verbs had things like Reveal, Heal, Change State, Move, Damage etc. So a simple healing spell would be 'Self' and 'Heal', but it does mean that a fireball potentially needs 'Fire', 'Damage' and 'Other' which could get complicated.

I need to draw up a full table to see what the corresponding effects would be.
Although maybe there needs to be three types? Noun, Verb and Element?
Which nicely leads to:

A party's main healer might have high levels in restorative magic, projected effects and human targets,

Yeah, I think there's something in this. I think at the heart of this, I need to define the 'language' of the spell configuration.

I think the advancement problem could be nicely avoided using DuPlaine's idea of being able to cast a spell that is too powerful, but it causing damage to the player or opens a rift that causes demons to appear that would attack the mage.
I'm still not sure how to approach the acquisition of new spells though. Should it be learned from an older mage, or could it be accidently discovered in the wild? If the mage encounters a Fire Elemental, then they have access to a 'Fire' spell from then on after exposure to such a strong amount of this type of magic. It could make for some self-initiated quests for the mage to expose themselves to a variety of magical creatures to gain these spells.

So let your wizards nerd it up in the library and in the lab, but don't let them finish reading a book and conjure a demon from the netherworld. Make them study to build the skeleton of their knowledge, then flesh it out with real-world experience.

Good point about difference between education and training. It will be interesting for players to learn new elements / effects / targeting patterns from the spell books. At the same time the actual accuracy, randomness of damage or critical chance of spells will depend on the frequency of their usage, making them more eager to actually use their skills.
A little off-topic but the system with limited number and quantity of mana types in an environment can lead to interesting accent on creativity and efficiency in the mage duels.

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