Writing code in C++ does not automatically mean the coder is even aware of what cache coherency is.

That isn't my point. You are correct that learning C or C++ does not magically make you aware of how to optimise cache usage.

But the sad truth is that learning Java pretty much guarantees that you will not be aware, as the language doesn't have the necessary mechanisms to do anything about it.

Writing code in C++ does not automatically mean the coder is even aware of what cache coherency is.

That isn't my point. You are correct that learning C or C++ does not magically make you aware of how to optimise cache usage.

But the sad truth is that learning Java pretty much guarantees that you will not be aware, as the language doesn't have the necessary mechanisms to do anything about it.

Oh yeah, I'm aware, that's why I removed the quote as it wasn't really on-point.

Like giving someone Legos to build with. [...] Is their lack of understanding how injection molding works really causing you problems?

That's a false analogy. The difference is that you don't do injection molding by playing with legos. In programming you are doing the low level stuff even if you're oblivious to it. Your example is not comparable.

For that matter, would someone claiming they know everything about injection molding by just playing with legos bother you?

--- SmkViper said but damn quote block wont work because fuck this editor ---

Is a hobbyist programmer content with working in Python going to really bother you so much?

--- end of quote ---

Since when we're talking exclusively about hobbyists? And why you're restricting the argument to the only corner it might make sense immediatly? Yeah if someone codes with Python, shares his code with nobody and if I never have to know anything about him, yeah it doesn't bothers me at all. I'll give you that much.

For that matter, doesn't a professional programmer not understanding why their array of mutable MyFloat object is slow as fuck and big as fuck bothers you at all?

This isn't about knowing how the 10 million lines of code you're building on top of works, which is what your example was aiming at. I don't know a shit about kernels, I couldn't possibly demand of someone else to know about them. This is just about knowing what all that syntax sugar boils down to, which aren't really complex subjects to be fair and can be summed up in a couple of concrete things (which I already mentioned) that you should know you're giving up when using, say Java vs C.

Because that's part of choosing the right tool for the job. You should understand not only how easy is to say, use a dictionary in Python compared to C, but also what you're giving up by using Python instead of C. That's why languages like C# are popular, they allow you to write a method in a completely managed environment and then just slap 'unsafe' in another and go (reasonably) crazy with pointers.

That's where things like D or Rust come from, they allow you not to give up anything, they allow you to take an informed decision.

All I'm trying to say is if you're teaching someone how to program - get them interested first. They aren't professional yet, they may not ever be professional at it, and that's ok. But if they aren't interested, they will be much harder to teach.

If your aim is to engage a bunch of people who aren't interested in programming to start with, then I guess that's a reasonable approach.

But if your students are already interested, then mucking around with pointers isn't going to phase them one little bit.

9/15

I'm not a good enough C+ monkey * goes back to typing Java *