quote:Original post by Diodor

Aiming at computer illiterate people won''t work very well for a game as complicated as a RPG (points at the thread title). I propose creating a game that''s maybe hard to get into, but a lot more enjoyable afterwards.



But if social interaction was (a significant) part of the game, a player could talk to someone who didn''t play the game before, ignoring the boring technical details and getting directly at the social part.

To me, the "social" part of an RPG is the actual role playing - so a truly good RPG would automatically be very social. An EXCELLENT CRPG would lead to the topic of conversation no longer being "hey, I got 20.000XP last night" or, "look at my cool +3 Armour of the Avenging Angel", it would be more the kind of thing like "last night, I finally got a chance to present my case to the King" etc.

If the focus of the game shifts to this (and that''s not easy to do - even the MMORPGS haven''t managed to shift away from simple XP gathering AFAIK), it will be easier to get people that are not terribly computer literate to play.

I''m very interested in researching ways to make this happen. How to take away from the dice-rolling and stat comparing, and let the focus slip naturally to the story and the interactions. That''s why I originally got involved with that dreaded "what''s with stats" thread from years ago


People might not remember what you said, or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.

quote:Original post by Diodor

Aiming at computer illiterate people won''t work very well for a game as complicated as a RPG (points at the thread title). I propose creating a game that''s maybe hard to get into, but a lot more enjoyable afterwards. The way to do that is to add social interaction as _part_ of the gameplay. Girls like to talk, to phone around and to spend time in chatrooms. Creating a game that requires this kind of interaction for success will presumably create a much better experience for the girl players.

*Tips head to one side in puzzlement* RPGs are complicated? Since when? A fighting game with lots of button combos, or a sim game, or an adventure game is much harder to learn how to control. With an RPG it''s just "Find what does the most damage to the monsters and keep doing that. If you get a new thing, equip it. If you can''t equip it, look at it in the item menu to see what it does. When in doubt, consult the walkthrough."

That''s almost as simple as a sidescroller "Go forward. Don''t die. Collect whatever is there to be collected."

quote:
Original post by sunandshadow

RPGs are complicated? Since when?

Well, any game that has at least a screen full of numbers could be deemed overcomplicated. Also, any game that requires the player to _read_ more than 10 lines of text would scare away half the Windows users. Finally, any game that requires a player to remember more than one or three things (like quests, spells, locations to come back to, weapons, prices, skills, useful NPCs, monster weaknesses) is simply hard.

But if you want complicated RPGs at their best, give Nethack or ADOM a try. More commands than a flight simulator, and without savegames very hard games too.

quote:Original post by Diodor
But if you want complicated RPGs at their best, give Nethack or ADOM a try. More commands than a flight simulator, and without savegames very hard games too.

To think that Nethack''s based on "Hack - The Amulet of Yendor". The first computer game EVER.

But, I still believe that RPGs CAN be made simple, or at least intuitive.

You say "anything that requires the user to read more than 10 lines of text scares off the average windows user". Maybe, so lets use text-to-speech and make sure they don''t have to read.


You say "any game that requires the user to remember more than 2 or 3 things is hard". That may be true, unless it''s within an acceptable, "real world" context. You may not remember that the "Sword of Vile Nastiness" happens to be particularly effective against the taller orcs that have purple eyes, because you happened to find that written in a fortune cookie you found in a troll''s lair. That''s not logical or real-world. However, if the shopkeeper in the country''s capital was very helpful in helping you pick out a good all-round weapon to defend yourself in the rougher neighbourhoods, you may take an unknown weapon to him next time because he proved his knowledge. The key is character depth, believability, and consistency. In real life, you also remember the people that were specially good for you.



People might not remember what you said, or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.

quote:Original post by sunandshadow

*Tips head to one side in puzzlement* RPGs are complicated? Since when? A fighting game with lots of button combos, or a sim game, or an adventure game is much harder to learn how to control. With an RPG it''s just "Find what does the most damage to the monsters and keep doing that. If you get a new thing, equip it. If you can''t equip it, look at it in the item menu to see what it does. When in doubt, consult the walkthrough."

That''s almost as simple as a sidescroller "Go forward. Don''t die. Collect whatever is there to be collected."

Find what does the most damage and keep doing that. I can agree that most RPGs in the computer world is like that today, but then I have never seen a game that let you roleplay (a RolePlaying Game). To me it seems people call a game a RPG as soon as it''s in a medieval setting. Which is not the case, according to me.

To me, a roleplaying game is a game where your character is developing all the time, depending on what you do. Not necessarily cleaving orc with a dwarven axe, why not trading? Hunting? With all these online games you could probably bring politics into it as well, if you think that''s fun.

The Wheel of Time, is that an RPG? No. (And yes, I was disappointed in the big-breasted Aes Sedai of the Black Ajah). Some games I hope will be better at the roleplaying aspect are Neverwinter Nights (http://www.bioware.com/nwn/) and Morrowind (http://www.morrowind.com).

If a game really is a RPG I believe girls can and will like it. Why? Because they like roleplaying games (the ones where you use pens and papers, dies, have a game leader/dungeon master/storyteller etc) if they give them a chance. So many times I''ve heard that "us boys who plays them are nerds". But when you manage to get the girls to try it, you''ll end up having to play day and night for weeks or you will have them asking you, "when are we going to play the next time?". (No they don''t have to be ugly to be that way as I saw someone say somewhere, not here).

Just a last note, an adventure does NOT have to include tons of killing to be fun. Investigating. Searching. Looking. Finding. Tricking. Solving puzzles. There are so many things you can do, doesn''t have to be violent.

Just my oppinion.

-Benny-

quote:Original post by MadKeithV
We were getting so close to agreement, and then drifted off again. Sniff!

Sawwy, and I apologize for my previous harsh comments toward diodor.

quote:Original post by Diodor
Aiming at computer illiterate people won't work very well for a game as complicated as a RPG (points at the thread title). I propose creating a game that's maybe hard to get into, but a lot more enjoyable afterwards. The way to do that is to add social interaction as _part_ of the gameplay. Girls like to talk, to phone around and to spend time in chatrooms. Creating a game that requires this kind of interaction for success will presumably create a much better experience for the girl players.

This is where I think it's wrong. From my experiences on browser, mud, and mmorpg games, girls sit around and chat mostly with one another about guess what, real life stuffs. Sure, they might organize an occational run on some mob but most of the time they sit in one place and chat for two even more hours straight, about what happen to them in real life. I just don't think the "game universe" would gain much benefit at all from the additional chat interface at all as it wouldn't draw the females in any closer toward the game.

quote:Well, any game that has at least a screen full of numbers could be deemed overcomplicated. Also, any game that requires the player to _read_ more than 10 lines of text would scare away half the Windows users. Finally, any game that requires a player to remember more than one or three things (like quests, spells, locations to come back to, weapons, prices, skills, useful NPCs, monster weaknesses) is simply hard.

Oh come on, don't tell me you didn't know that women have a much longer memory spam than us males? Can you remember the date you and your gf first met? I'll bet she does. The first group of poeple that the game would drive off with it's complication (none physical control related stuffs) would be a male majority, not female.

quote:Original post by cmdkeen
If anyone wants to attract women to CRPGs or computer games in general the game designers should stop to make these stereotypic blast away games. They need to go even farther: make games that are dont show you the limits of the game world every 5 minutes. When the player wants to wear a red carpet around his shoulders as a cape allow him to do so. When he wants to talk to the town folk dont force him to say the same 3 sentences again and again.

Okay, repetitive speech is one thing I think everyone would agree that's not needed. But wearing the red carpet around his shoulders? I don't think so. There is no point for adding this in except to please a few people and have the additional codes and art design. This is where UO went bad. Too many useless stuffs and not enough fun. If this is something half the gamers would never thought about trying, take it out.

Can't remember who said this: sometimes making a game is not about putting more stuffs in, it's about leaving the useless stuffs out and improve the previous design.

quote:It's like it is always: woman are much harder to satisfy than men. Give a man something to play with and he'll be happy. Give the same thing to a girl and she'll remember she already saw something better... ;-)

Yea... like real life. I hate RPG Back to designing adventure I go.

Edited by - mooglez on December 11, 2001 9:56:01 PM

Yes, It''s sad that there are not many girls playing computer games.

For many of them, games are for little kids/immature boys/nerds etc. And I''m not being sexist or whatever, I''ve heard it from girls more than I''d like. I don''t know who to blame about this, actually.

But it''s not just about computer games. There are a lot of girls I know of that play pencil-and-paper RPG''s. And you cannot really say they''re easy. Any kind of RPG will require a lot of reading, rules and so on. However, think about how you start playing an RPG: creating a character. That''s something girls can relate to. And there''s plenty of social interaction going on, and thinking.

Now, tell me how many girls play Magic: The Gathering? I met two today, and that''s all. They did have hardcore Magic players as boyfriends, though. I have some female friends that said that they wouldn''t play it because they didn''t understand it, or because it was boring. And they may be just right.

The main issue here is how to get girls to pay attention to computer games. They need first to bother looking at it. If they get this far, I hope the game doesn''t have big boobs or the like...

It''s an entirely different experience to play with girls. I still miss one I met playing Ultima Online. And yes, I know she was a girl, and not a guy in disguise. In fact, I believe I''ve become pretty proficient at telling if someone is a male or female, just by how they behave and (specially) how they talk. Not to mention that usually, girls are much more funny than guys

Gaiomard Dragon
-===(UDIC)===-

quote:This is where I think it''s wrong. From my experiences on browser, mud, and mmorpg games, girls sit around and chat mostly with one another about guess what, real life stuffs. Sure, they might organize an occational run on some mob but most of the time they sit in one place and chat for two even more hours straight, about what happen to them in real life. I just don''t think the "game universe" would gain much benefit at all from additional the additional chat interface at all as it wouldn''t draw the females in any closer toward the game.

I couldn''t explain this any better! However(back to UO I go) sometimes they don''t talk about real life, and just roleplay. And guess what, I believe they have an easier time roleplaying than we do.

quote:
Oh come on, don''t tell me you didn''t know that women have a much longer memory spam than us males? Can you remember the date you and your gf first met? I''ll bet she does. The first group of poeple that the game would drive off with it''s complication would be a male majority, not female.

Really, but girls would have to have a reason to learn all the stuff to begin with.

quote:It''s like it is always: woman are much harder to satisfy than men. Give a man something to play with and he''ll be happy. Give the same thing to a girl and she''ll remember she already saw something better... ;-)

Yes, and it''s sometimes annoying


Gaiomard Dragon
-===(UDIC)===-