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Java taking over?

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I wanted to be a game programmer once, so I learned many a book about C++, but I took a short break and now I''m back in the game. I just entered college, but all of my comp science courses are telling me that everything''s changing to Java. The standardized test I took last year was on C++, but it said that starting next year it''s all gonna be on Java. Even my friends in higher level comp science courses are saying Java is becoming the standard. What''s going on? Is this affecting game programming as well? (Is C++ game programming going to be replaced with Java? Are there any signs of this now?)

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Guest Anonymous Poster
java will not replace everything. the biggest problem in java is it''s execution speed which happens to be slow.

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personally, i dont like java at all.. im using it alot at uni and i think its sits a fair way back from c++. but then again thats because ive used c++ for longer and im more accustomed to doing things that way. other opinions may vary, there are some things i like about java, single inheritance and interfaces, for example.. but all in all, i prefer c++ for just about any sort of programming task

Get busy livin'' or get busy dyin''... - Shawshank Redemption

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i dont like java and the sun microsystem propaganda machine.
C++ is a regulated standard by ansi. Java seems to change with every version , like 1.5 comming out soon.

java even contradicts itself like saying templates are complex so they wont be in java, but then 1.5 will have general classes which are templates..

personally, i prefer C / C++ since its an established standard on every platform.

Its my duty, to please that booty ! - John Shaft

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jwalker - just as a note, Java will not have templates, they willk ahve generics. While you might not get the difference, there is one - basically you can do a lot more with templates, and ist is this a lot more that makes them complex.


Regards

Thomas Tomiczek
THONA Consulting Ltd.
(Microsoft MVP C#/.NET)

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I like JAVA!!! but not for makin'' games. But I think its a great programming language to develope tools to make games. The Java swing set provides cool tools to quickly wip up little simple applications.

But Java will never replace C or C++ in game programming!!!

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Java is a nice language, and very fast to write with a good IDE like IntelliJ IDEA.

I especially like the way every Java coder has about the same codings standards. It's really easy to use any API found on the net since they're written like you expect, and it makes your code uniform. I wish Java language standard even *enforced* ppl to write with certain naming convention, but the current situation is good enough .

Eg. classes are written MyClass, functions myFunction() etc. C++ has no such standards, unfortunately. I see MyFunction(), my_function(), myFunction and all the other possible combination for every different lil' thing (classes, functions, globals, variables) in C/C++ code, which makes it a bitch to read sometimes.

[edited by - civguy on August 28, 2002 5:46:20 AM]

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quote:
.Net will take over before just java does.


Big businesses don''t trust anything Microsoft. When there is a lot of sensitive information at hand banks, etc will explore all alternatives before they choose to go with a MS product.

I''d steer clear of .NET for the while until MS can sort out their security issues (which given their track record won''t be anytime soon).

Project: Starfighter
http://www.parallelrealities.co.uk

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there is yet a lot of stuff in development with .NET.. since some years btw.. and simply because its microsoft it doesn''t mean its not good..

java is a great language, and i like it very much.. i just have no use for it:D i code c++.. its in fact sort of a crappy language, but somehow you can do everything in it, and thats fun:D

"take a look around" - limp bizkit
www.google.com

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Java is a great programming langage, and it''s not slow! Java 1.4 is very fast compared to the previous version... You like or you don''t like it, but Java is great. C++ is also great. but i prefer Java

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i forgot to say that since january 2002, there are more Java programmers than C++ programmers in the world... But Java won''t replace anything, it simply brings new way to think a very powerfull network programming part...

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The only thing that Java is replacing C++ on is to teach people object oriented concepts.

ps. Java and C++ are both great.

---
Make it work.
Make it fast.

"I’m happy to share what I can, because I’m in it for the love of programming. The Ferraris are just gravy, honest!" --John Carmack: Forward to Graphics Programming Black Book

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I doubt Java or any other single environment is going to "take over" anything. There will always be alternatives.
<opinion>However, I do think its time for C++ to be retired. The language is quite simply too weak, bloated and legacy-ridden to justify it''s existence for much longer - at least without a major reworking. And since the language has effectively been sentenced to Death By Committee, this reworking is not very likely to happen.</opinion>


"PL/I and Ada started out with all the bloat, were very daunting languages, and got bad reputations (deservedly). C++ has shown that if you slowly bloat up a language over a period of years, people don''t seem to mind as much."

James Hague

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"The language is quite simply too weak, bloated and legacy-ridden to justify it''s existence for much longer"

Um...you can''t get tighter code than C++. I don''t know where you get this idea it''s bloated from. No one is forcing you to use anything you don''t want to and nothing you don''t use will be added to your exe.

Weak? What exactly has it failed to excell at?

Java will never take over. It''s too slow. Until it''s a fully compilable language it will never take over C++ and that would defeat the point of Java.

Ben


IcarusIndie.com [ The Rabbit Hole | The Labyrinth | DevZone | Gang Wars | The Wall | Hosting | Dot Com | GameShot ]

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Reason number one why Java should never be used comercially, it CAN be decompiled. Only people who make Open Source projects would like that, I dought people who work years on something would want others too see thier source.

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Well, I assume you little physicist here has never heard that there are decompilers for C++, right? Actually decompilers generating C++ code again.

And that there are obfuscators for Java and .NET code that make the output extremely unreadable :-)

And that there are intellectual property rights :-)

And the story continues.


Regards

Thomas Tomiczek
THONA Consulting Ltd.
(Microsoft MVP C#/.NET)

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Guest Anonymous Poster
quote:
Original post by Chman_a11w
i forgot to say that since january 2002, there are more Java programmers than C++ programmers in the world...


This has been true for VB for awhile, yet VB was never hyped as "taking over the world" the way Java is.

Another viewpoint - my company was one of the earliest users of Java back in its early alpha days (~1995) At the time, everyone said that Java was THE NEXT BIG THING. There were going to be ubiquitous devices based on java chips and java was going to be in each and every web page.

Since that time, that hasn''t really happened. Perhaps it''s good for some things, but it is nowhere closer to where the hype said it would be.

The surprising thing about your comment is that I would have said that the hype has actually died down in the last couple of years. Businesses use it where it makes sense, but people are no longer stumbling over themselves to use java for java''s sake.

I taught java for a couple of semesters at a university. The number one reason for using java vs. something else was that it was free, downloadable, and had a shallower learning curve than C++. These reasons are great for learning, but are not the best reasons to pick something at the professional level. Perhaps your friends in higher level classes are confusing academic reality with business reality (VERY different...)

As for C++ being bloated... How is it more bloated than Java? Usually, people complain that it is too low level and that it needs garbage collection and lots of other features to revamp it.

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quote:
Original post by KalvinB
Um...you can''t get tighter code than C++. I don''t know where you get this idea it''s bloated from.

I don''t think Arild''s talking about the size of the resultant executable, but the size of the *language*, and the number of special cases one has to remember to avoid all the pitfalls.
quote:

Weak? What exactly has it failed to excell at?

Elegance?

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"but the size of the *language*"

Who cares if it doesn''t actually effect the final output? None of that "bloat" is slowing down your project.

"and the number of special cases one has to remember to avoid all the pitfalls"

For example...?

And how does the number of cases in C++ compare to Java?

"Elegance?"

Oh yeah, there''s a critical aspect of a language. /sarcasm

How is Java any "prettier" than C++?

Ben


IcarusIndie.com [ The Rabbit Hole | The Labyrinth | DevZone | Gang Wars | The Wall | Hosting | Dot Com | GameShot ]

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quote:
Original post by SabreMan
[quote]
Weak? What exactly has it failed to excell at?

Elegance?

elegance? how on earth is that relevent? java is just as bloated IMO as c++ with all the depracted methods/objects etc, etc... did any one read that article at o''reillys about things that should be fixed in java. just a question, not that im deriving my opinions from that article. (a little disclaimer, just in case)
i agree with what someone mentioned earlier java is better suited to learning OOP than most other languages.



Get busy livin'' or get busy dyin''... - Shawshank Redemption

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As for my two cents on this matter:

You need to consider what you are developing your game for.

PC running Windows with DirectX/OpenGL, C++ is the clear choice. PC running Linux with SDL/OpenGL, again C++ the winner. XBox, again C++. You just simply cannot get another language that has the number of tools and game development SDKs available/targeted at C++ developers.

If I were wanting to write a fairly simple platform independent game that could be run within a browser with modest hardware requirements, I would choose Java over C++.

As for the comment on C++ being bloated or having feature bloat no one is saying you have to use ALL of its features. Learn how to use the best features of the language, encapsulation, inheritance, and polymorphism. Master pointers, memory allocation and learn how to use the STL string and container classes. With these features you can produce clean, robust, and extensible code quickly.

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I agree with KalvinB; C++ is a big hulking beast because there are so many features, but nobody has to use them all. Are simpler languages, with less features better? Sure, their syntax is cleaner because they don''t support as much as C++, but to achieve the equivalent of a template class in, say, Visual Basic, you''ll have to write a lot of ''elegant'' and repetitive code.

However, I agree that C++ without C compatibility could be simplified, but I don''t think that''s going to happen (or if it does, it will be yet another language no one uses).

Cédric

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quote:
Original post by KalvinB
Who cares if it doesn''t actually effect the final output? None of that "bloat" is slowing down your project.

It means that it can take time to figure out how to do *anything*, which *might* be slowing down your project, with the proviso that "slowing down your project" is a relative term.
quote:

For example...?

static? sequence points? definitions like this:

T t(10);

?
Places where a semi-colon is needed? The difference between "." and "->"?

In general, though, the most bogus features of C++ are due to C legacy. It''s a double-edged sword. C++ wouldn''t be so popular if it weren''t for that legacy.
quote:

And how does the number of cases in C++ compare to Java?

I wasn''t comparing anything to Java, I was clarifying Arild''s statement of opinion, which I don''t think he made in relation to Java.
quote:

Oh yeah, there''s a critical aspect of a language. /sarcasm

Your inability to understand how important elegance is in programming language design does not make it any less important.
Who Cares About Elegance?
quote:

How is Java any "prettier" than C++?

Where did I say it is?

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