quote:Original post by Illumini
I disagree I''ve been reading this thread for the past 30 minutes, although I admit I haven''t nerely digested all the ideas presented. I feel threads of this calibur shouldn''t be let die. If we lock it, it gets buried in the forums and others intrested in the subject will probably never find it.

I for one am happy someone dug this up.

If you just want a summary of the ideas brought up, go here - a thread I started in response to the (deserved) necromancy accusations and opened with a summary of the ideas put forwards in this thread.

Wow, so much wrong with arguments, so little room to type.

Success based doesn't mean murder based. All of the systems that you keep talking about are murder based systems. Of course, if you are talking abour MMOGs, then I guess you want a get-murdered system.

Just because those 12 orcs are level 6 and you're level 20 doesn't mean that you won't learn anything from fighting them. If anything, you'll learn more because you're in a different environment (fighting multiple opponents). Sure, if you're fighting one punk orc, you deserve to learn nothing, but if nothing else, it is the equivalent of practice.

Failure based rewards implies that those who fail the most learn the most. That is NOT reality. Think about those who fail... John Romero is making GBA games now, not multimillion dollar premium titles.

The US Army is kicking the snot out of the Iraqi army. Why? Because they expect to succeed. Why? Because they almost always do. If you repeatedly fail, you start expecting to fail, if you don't think so, you're more naive than you sound. Successful businessmen learn a LOT from their successes, that's why they are successful. Successful colonels become successful generals. Unsuccessful colonels would become unsuccessful generals. That's why they don't become generals.

When you hire someone, do you hire the guy who screwed up last time? No, you're probably more likely to hire someone with no experience in that position, but with plenty of successful experience in the field first because they have a successful history. If you don't, then you're setting up your business (and investors) up for a big loss.

Yes, I hate 'murder' based systems. Will I learn more from dying to a Giant or killing an Orc who is beneath me though? Well, I'll learn that I can expect to kill an Orc... or I'll learn that the Giant will kill me VERY fast when he hits me with that club. If my friends are lucky they will find my corpse in an hour or two. Giving it a proper burial will take some time though, since they will have to pick up pieces across a few acres of land. The next time I fight an Orc I'll expect to win and will be more prepared to do different moves. The next time I fight a Giant I'll be waiting for the hammer to fall, so to speak. When I go up against a Giant after killing hundreds of smaller critters (starting with Orcs?), I'll expect success. When he starts swinging that club I'll move to the side because I've succeeded in dodging before, I won't close my eyes waiting for the sweet mercies of death.

Yes, 'level' systems are silly, where when I hit a magical exp number *poof* I'm more powerful. But having a suicide based system is even worse.

Don't find ways to reward people being stupid. Find ways to convince them to succeed. Those that fail in battle in real life don't fight anymore, they wonder where that leg or arm went... or their next of kin gets a bunch of money.

[edited by - solinear on April 2, 2003 9:55:46 AM]