quote:Original post by dmikesell

quote:Actually the programmers that put out applications with memory leaks, buffer problems, etc are the ones to blame if you don''t like the system.

A managed system wouldn''t be needed if people actually knew how to correctly design, implement, and debug code =]

I agree...I think there are way too many programmers in the world today. But it would also be nice to have an O/S that couldn''t be brought to it''s knees by an application crash. UNIX pulls it off, and not by putting smooth plastic covers on all of the sharp programming tools.

--
<a href=http://davemikesell.com>Dave Mikesell Software & Consulting</a>

Yeah, this is basically what I was trying to say. Good metaphor!

quote:Original post by Imperil

quote:Original post by python_regious
All of you people are going on about the next windows, it isn't the only OS. What about linux people?

You have to remember that you're unique, just like everybody else.

I'm sorry to say this.. but yes it is the only OS. We are talking about development for desktop systems. Microsoft has 90-95% of this market and that fact isn't changing any time soon.

The OP never mentioned what platform he/she wants to program for so really MS is in the minority since most processors arent running any MS Operating Systems.

[edited by - flangazor on November 19, 2003 10:25:43 AM]

quote:Original post by Anonymous Poster

quote:Original post by Imperil

quote:Original post by Anonymous Poster
If I were you I would experiment with Linux, which comes with a free c/c++ compiler, & get yourself some (free) openGL libraries, then read up and practice. Linux is already where Microsoft is trying to go. Then once you have a grasp for programming, you can move onto the industry-standard garbage

"Linux is already where Microsoft is trying to go."

- LOL statement of the year! Microsoft simply gave the .NET framework to the public domain so idiots would port it to their OS.

As they port the framework to Linux, Mac, etc.. they think they are doing a great service to people. Developers start coding key applications and really enjoying coding with the .NET framework and become a lot more productive.

Then comes Longhorn, a completely managed system. Longhorn would not only blow away Linux and Mac regarding security/safety, but also run 5-10 times faster because .NET is native to the OS =]

Now the people developing software see how bad their systems really rate against a pure managed system... so they decide to move to Windows.

Also you have the fact that it would be trivial to port things like office, etc to Linux, Mac, and other OS's once they have stable .NET (which mono already does pretty much).

So you're telling me that I can download the .net Framework and immediately become productive and start coding? I could have sworn I still needed to drop a dime or two and purchase the visual studio .net programming suite in order to do any coding capable of utilizing the .net Framework. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Do you work for Microsoft? They'd probably hire you as a cheerleader or a promoter or something. People like you make me laugh out loud!

The only reason Microsoft dominates the market is because that's where all the money is. If those money-hungry execs actually donated some of their time and skill to the open source community and stopped trying to help the Dominate and the Proprietatators, things would happen with Linux. Not like that will ever happen though.

lol this was supposed to be a joke but I am always taken seriously I guess due to my posting style =]

Also you don't need Visual Studio.NET at all for development. Microsoft gives you the compiler as part of the .NET framework download, and you can also look at SharpDevelop.


[edited by - Imperil on November 19, 2003 11:20:10 AM]

quote:Original post by dmikesell

quote:Actually the programmers that put out applications with memory leaks, buffer problems, etc are the ones to blame if you don''t like the system.

A managed system wouldn''t be needed if people actually knew how to correctly design, implement, and debug code =]

I agree...I think there are way too many programmers in the world today. But it would also be nice to have an O/S that couldn''t be brought to it''s knees by an application crash. UNIX pulls it off, and not by putting smooth plastic covers on all of the sharp programming tools.

--
Dave Mikesell Software & Consulting

You are telling me it is impossible for a bad application to crash a UNIX system?

Now on that note.. when we are speaking Windows development, the majority is desktop development.. because Microsoft does not have the largest enterprise server userbase =]

That being said, Linux crashes a lot more than Windows 2000 or Windows XP. This is especially prevelent in the GUI systems like KDE and Gnome, and applications written for those systems. Why? The same problem that Microsoft is currently having.. bad 3rd party application development.


But I must agree with you on a point you previously made. We''re really just shifting sand back and forth until we can actually see Longhorn. I have the PDC copy from being an MSDN subscriber.. but it''s a pre-alpha and you can''t really judge a system by that.

I would actually be REALLY shocked if the desktop Linux versions didn''t go to a managed system if Longhorn does well. I mean there are 3 main reasons that a lot of people switched to Linux desktop computing:

1) Stability
2) Security
3) "i r hAt3 micro$oft" dialect speakers

1) Stability was overhyped. As a server platform the Linux OS is DAMN stable, I can attest to that. I can also say from speaking with many Linux desktop users, that using it as a desktop OS leaves much to be desired.. considering speed and applications crashing and dependant on each other isn''t the greatest thing. Also the Linux community has ran into the same thing the Windows community has... bad application developers.

2) Security is pretty good on a Linux system. The only way I can think of upping the security on this is to make it a managed system, which would do away with hacks, trojans, virii, and again bad programming.

3) These people are usually:

a) under the age of 18 and think they are "rebelling for the cause" for some unknown reason.

b) have a ton of garbage 3rd party software and spyware on their system (probably a couple virii or trojans) and yell about how their system performance is horrible.

c) just enjoy quoting news sources on security flaws in Microsoft products and operating systems because it''s the "l33t" thing to do.

So the opinions of #3 really don''t count at all in the professional world.

All in all.. I guess we''ll just have to wait our 2 years and really see how things turn out. Technology can take wierd turns at times and it''s truely hard to predict.

quote:Original post by Imperil

3) "i r hAt3 micro$oft" dialect speakers

3) These people are usually:

a) under the age of 18 and think they are "rebelling for the cause" for some unknown reason.

b) have a ton of garbage 3rd party software and spyware on their system (probably a couple virii or trojans) and yell about how their system performance is horrible.

c) just enjoy quoting news sources on security flaws in Microsoft products and operating systems because it''s the "l33t" thing to do.

So the opinions of #3 really don''t count at all in the professional world.

All in all.. I guess we''ll just have to wait our 2 years and really see how things turn out. Technology can take wierd turns at times and it''s truely hard to predict.

Actually, my opinion counts just as much as yours does. And yes, I do have a pesky trojan on my W2K machine that won''t go away, even with Microsoft''s "patch". And yes, it is my opinion that Linux is a better developer''s operating system compared to any managed or unmanaged Microsoft OS/.NET whatever. That''s what it was made for. It''s the candy without the wrapper. You just can''t surpass the power of the open source community. I like to have the power to manage my own destiny.

quote:Original post by Anonymous Poster

quote:Original post by Imperil

3) "i r hAt3 micro$oft" dialect speakers

3) These people are usually:

a) under the age of 18 and think they are "rebelling for the cause" for some unknown reason.

b) have a ton of garbage 3rd party software and spyware on their system (probably a couple virii or trojans) and yell about how their system performance is horrible.

c) just enjoy quoting news sources on security flaws in Microsoft products and operating systems because it''s the "l33t" thing to do.

So the opinions of #3 really don''t count at all in the professional world.

All in all.. I guess we''ll just have to wait our 2 years and really see how things turn out. Technology can take wierd turns at times and it''s truely hard to predict.

Actually, my opinion counts just as much as yours does. And yes, I do have a pesky trojan on my W2K machine that won''t go away, even with Microsoft''s "patch". And yes, it is my opinion that Linux is a better developer''s operating system compared to any managed or unmanaged Microsoft OS/.NET whatever. That''s what it was made for. It''s the candy without the wrapper. You just can''t surpass the power of the open source community. I like to have the power to manage my own destiny.

That is a pretty awful misrepresentation if I''ve ever seen one.

Linux != the open source community

Maybe you aren''t old enough to remember back, but the open source community was alive and thriving well before Linux.

And if you are saying you belong in either of those a, b, c categories I stated than I have no response. I didn''t think anyone would be so stupid to admit to that.

From the looks of your statement it looks like you are saying you fit into category b:

"b) have a ton of garbage 3rd party software and spyware on their system (probably a couple virii or trojans) and yell about how their system performance is horrible."

than wtf? You blame Microsoft because you installed a trojan from a 3rd party on your system? If you play the who''s fault is it game, the 3rd party company would be first, than you, than.. according to your logic NOTHING.. because the OS is just supposed to hand full control to the application.


"And yes, it is my opinion that Linux is a better developer''s operating system compared to any managed or unmanaged Microsoft OS/.NET whatever. That''s what it was made for. "

- Linux is a better developer''s operating system when 90-95% of the userbase uses Windows? Sure that''s a pretty correct statement, rofl. If we were talking about server applications it would be different.

Wow you must be really old.

quote:Original post by Anonymous Poster
Wow you must be really old.

The majority of people that work in the industry are what you would call old (ie 20-22+). I haven't seen anyone below the age of 18 working in what I would call a "professional" development environment.

Maybe you should look up the FSF and others to see how old open source software is.

heheh it's the 14-16 year olds that go around preaching open source and that it just started 2-3 years ago and not knowing the facts or why it exists, that put a blemish on the face of open source software =]

[edited by - Imperil on November 19, 2003 1:36:23 PM]

quote:Original post by Imperil

quote:Original post by Anonymous Poster

quote:Original post by Imperil

3) "i r hAt3 micro$oft" dialect speakers

3) These people are usually:

a) under the age of 18 and think they are "rebelling for the cause" for some unknown reason.

b) have a ton of garbage 3rd party software and spyware on their system (probably a couple virii or trojans) and yell about how their system performance is horrible.

c) just enjoy quoting news sources on security flaws in Microsoft products and operating systems because it''s the "l33t" thing to do.

So the opinions of #3 really don''t count at all in the professional world.

All in all.. I guess we''ll just have to wait our 2 years and really see how things turn out. Technology can take wierd turns at times and it''s truely hard to predict.

Actually, my opinion counts just as much as yours does. And yes, I do have a pesky trojan on my W2K machine that won''t go away, even with Microsoft''s "patch". And yes, it is my opinion that Linux is a better developer''s operating system compared to any managed or unmanaged Microsoft OS/.NET whatever. That''s what it was made for. It''s the candy without the wrapper. You just can''t surpass the power of the open source community. I like to have the power to manage my own destiny.

That is a pretty awful misrepresentation if I''ve ever seen one.

Linux != the open source community

Maybe you aren''t old enough to remember back, but the open source community was alive and thriving well before Linux.

And if you are saying you belong in either of those a, b, c categories I stated than I have no response. I didn''t think anyone would be so stupid to admit to that.

From the looks of your statement it looks like you are saying you fit into category b:

"b) have a ton of garbage 3rd party software and spyware on their system (probably a couple virii or trojans) and yell about how their system performance is horrible."

than wtf? You blame Microsoft because you installed a trojan from a 3rd party on your system? If you play the who''s fault is it game, the 3rd party company would be first, than you, than.. according to your logic NOTHING.. because the OS is just supposed to hand full control to the application.


"And yes, it is my opinion that Linux is a better developer''s operating system compared to any managed or unmanaged Microsoft OS/.NET whatever. That''s what it was made for. "

- Linux is a better developer''s operating system when 90-95% of the userbase uses Windows? Sure that''s a pretty correct statement, rofl. If we were talking about server applications it would be different.

Just because I fit into your categories doesn''t mean that Imperil := correct. Even if I put myself there. Obviously I feel that Linux is better than Microsoft. So I guess that put''s me in that > 1 to 3%. You must be just <= everyone else ;