Jump to content
  • Advertisement

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

TangentZ

Proposal to make all games instantly better...

This topic is 5152 days old which is more than the 365 day threshold we allow for new replies. Please post a new topic.

If you intended to correct an error in the post then please contact us.

Recommended Posts

Advertisement
Nice Article,but I guess this guy has not played Breath of Fire 5:Dragon Quarter,which uses a pretty hardcore save system that I really enjoyed.You start the game with 10 save tokens and you can find let''s say 10 more in a game that lasts from 10 to 20 hours depending on how you play it,also it uses another coundown system that leads you to your death if it reaches its climax,this might be extreme but it could be another example that some people wouldn''t and like and other people would enjoy/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The game should be designed first and foremost so that it's fun to play with limited saves, but the player should also be given the opportunity to choose unlimited saves. The save game choice should be separate from other difficulty settings. That's all. The problem is just the "unlimited save-oriented game design" where sudden deaths are common because the game expects you to save a lot.

And as was suggested in the above thread, even in limited save game system one should always be given the possibility to exit the game at any point. But those save games would be temporary like in Nethack, i.e. you could continue from them only once.

[edited by - civguy on April 11, 2004 1:56:47 PM]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This subject is totally a matter of opinion, but I strongly believe that the player should be able to save his progress in a game at any time. I do not find "save points" to increase the suspense in a game. They merely add unneeded frustration. When playing games that only allow me to save at certain points, I don''t find myself feeling anxious as to what will happen next. I find myself worrying about where the next save point will be. Forcing the player to replay parts of your game over and over is stupid.

To quote Andrew Rollings and Ernest Adams:

"We believe that these arguments against saving are spurious and the sign of a lazy designer. Making a game harder simply by preventing the player from saving the game is a cheap way of creating challenge out of nothing...If a player continuously reloads a game to avoid a random event or to solve some problem by trial and error rather than skill or intelligence, he is, in effect, cheating at solitaire."

Of course, allowing unlimited saves is not necessary. Limiting the number of saves per level/mission/whatever (ala Hitman 2) would increase the suspense but allow the player to save his progress at carefully chosen times.

These are just my thoughts, so feel free to disagree. However, be aware that the games we build are played (hopefully) by many people, and we as designers are here to provide entertainment to them. It is not our goal to "beat" the player, or prevent them from enjoying our games.

-Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nice post!
Unlimited (anytime) saves is nice, for the right game. As been stated, it''s all opinion and what''s best for the game. I agree with a lot of what doctor6string said.
I prefer designers properly placing limited saves. Places, as an example, after puzzles, boss fights, etc. This way the player gets a huge sense of relief when they beat that area and reach the save. Recently I played through Sly Cooper, and the best feelings came from working my way through a tough area and reaching that checkpoint.
I''m currently designing an adventure/platform game with a checkpoint save system, very similar to saving system seen in sly cooper, farcry, etc. As a designer, I enjoy placing these in levels, just like any item, in strategic places that will give the player a sense of accomplishment and relief.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Playing through Dynasty Warriors 4, and finally beating a particularly annoying level in the middle of the night, I felt happy. I turned off the X-box and went to bed.

A few days later, I wanted to continue -- that''s when I found out that you have to page through 3 statistics display scenes AFTER beating the level, before the level is actually saved. So I have to re-beat this annoying level.

BAD DESIGNER! NO COOKIE!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I would lean towards automatically invalidating a save file once it has been opened so that the user can stop at any time, but isn''t implicitly given the power to turn back time, unless of course that concept was actually intended and integral to the gameplay.

______________________________________________________________
The Phoenix shall arise from the ashes... ThunderHawk -- ¦þ
MySite
______________________________________________________________

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
Original post by Thunder_Hawk
I would lean towards automatically invalidating a save file once it has been opened so that the user can stop at any time, but isn''t implicitly given the power to turn back time, unless of course that concept was actually intended and integral to the gameplay.



So, what is a player supposed to do if the game crashed? The
power is gone? Some toddler kicked the plug?

[Insert other unpredictable "disasters".]

"Oops, the save game I loaded is now gone. Curse the designer!"

2501: BFDQ has one of the strictest save system I''ve seen for
a console game, an RPG to boot. I''ve read MANY people complain
about it.

Some got their game disc scratched and the game would freeze in
the middle of a battle or something. There goes 2 hours of game
play down the drain.




Kami no Itte ga ore ni zettai naru!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
Original post by tangentz
So, what is a player supposed to do if the game crashed? The
power is gone? Some toddler kicked the plug?



Autosave-But you'd still probably be screwed out of those 2 hours in a standard save setup anyways (I've had this happen numerous times). I guess I made the mistake of listing my thoughts in reverse priority as well. I would only use such a system in a situation where a unique runthrough is one the primary gameplay concepts. Even then, though, I would have to mull over it for a while.

______________________________________________________________
The Phoenix shall arise from the ashes... ThunderHawk -- ¦þ
MySite
______________________________________________________________


[edited by - Thunder_Hawk on April 11, 2004 3:49:00 PM]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quote:
Original post by doctorsixstring
This subject is totally a matter of opinion
It doesn''t matter if you make it an option and design the game so that it''s not overly frustrating even without save anywhere.
quote:
I do not find "save points" to increase the suspense in a game. They merely add unneeded frustration.
I think the frustration is needed, as a punishment for playing badly and not thinking enough. With "save points" I won''t try foolish moves such as "what happens if I jump off that cliff" because I know trying dumb things costs me time. Trial and error won''t be a viable solution anymore. And for me, they do add a lot of suspense as well, because an enemy killing me actually has a real-life consequence.
quote:
"Making a game harder simply by preventing the player from saving the game is a cheap way of creating challenge out of nothing."
If the game really is challenging when you can''t save everywhere, doesn''t it mean there is a real challenge in the game? I.e. it''s not "out of nothing". If solving it were to be made easier by adding the "save anywhere"-feature and not by designing the game to be manageable without "save anywhere" (the approach I prefer), then these fellows are actually encouraging what they describe as "cheating at solitaire". IMO, "save anywhere" is a cheap way to cover up game balance design errors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Advertisement
×

Important Information

By using GameDev.net, you agree to our community Guidelines, Terms of Use, and Privacy Policy.

Participate in the game development conversation and more when you create an account on GameDev.net!

Sign me up!