One thing to remember is that Fresh out of School developers won't have savings to carry them through the deferral period.
I am interested in getting into the industry. I have software industry, but not dev experience. But I am an adult, I have bills to pay.
Sure, I'd jump at an oppertunity to work for slightly below even junior dev's salary for the experience. But anything lower than that and it's totally not worth it. If I need to take 2 jobs to break even, then I won't. I'll stick with my high paying out of industry job, and work on my projects in the evenings.
Does anyone else feel me on this one?!
Author
ApochPiQ: I agree, and that is the policy we have used with my company thus far. But we really do like to try and find new people, not because they are cheap or anything, but because that's how we all started.
Don't you remember being a noob? We all started there then something happened that changed all that. More often that not it's something rediculous out of nowhere. So, we try to make spots available for new people as often as possible. Of course we don't disrupt the integrity of our work though.
Don't you remember being a noob? We all started there then something happened that changed all that. More often that not it's something rediculous out of nowhere. So, we try to make spots available for new people as often as possible. Of course we don't disrupt the integrity of our work though.
People still think the help wanted forum is serious? [shocked]
I think that if you run some statistics you will find that the help wanted forum is filled with posts by kids (young and old) who want to code whatever is hip at the moment but know nothing about either game design, game programming, 3d art or music composing, and they think they can get people to do all those things for them and still take the credit, so the regulars usually spect to find exactly that whenever they see a new post there.
Here is an Idea I had not long ago, write down a design document, how stuff should work and all, the more detailed the best, write a game engine design document, create interfaces and whatnot, "shells" of each of your classes and what the expected behaviour is for each class and its method, but do not implement any of those, this should be something one person can do in a relatively small frame of time, once you have a realistic map of what needs to be done, head to one of those rent-a-coder sites and start one auction for each of your classes/modules, the really simple ones you can code yourself, set deadlines and all that, then pay them up (I'd spect you'll be spending about $200 per class(?)), get the code and put it together as if it was a puzzle, if your design is sound and everyone followed the instructions, it should fit, and in the end everybody wins.
What do you guys think? [smile]
I think that if you run some statistics you will find that the help wanted forum is filled with posts by kids (young and old) who want to code whatever is hip at the moment but know nothing about either game design, game programming, 3d art or music composing, and they think they can get people to do all those things for them and still take the credit, so the regulars usually spect to find exactly that whenever they see a new post there.
Here is an Idea I had not long ago, write down a design document, how stuff should work and all, the more detailed the best, write a game engine design document, create interfaces and whatnot, "shells" of each of your classes and what the expected behaviour is for each class and its method, but do not implement any of those, this should be something one person can do in a relatively small frame of time, once you have a realistic map of what needs to be done, head to one of those rent-a-coder sites and start one auction for each of your classes/modules, the really simple ones you can code yourself, set deadlines and all that, then pay them up (I'd spect you'll be spending about $200 per class(?)), get the code and put it together as if it was a puzzle, if your design is sound and everyone followed the instructions, it should fit, and in the end everybody wins.
What do you guys think? [smile]
I can see both sides of the argument. I feel your pain.
I've been on five "commercial" different game teams, over the past 3 years. I took other jobs to pay my expenses through college. Did game development on the side.
Of those five teams, two are no longer around, one is on a "break", another is doing another project, and only one is still around. A contract means nothing if the corporation is still around. Yes it's good experience. So two have so far made it. So far the those projects still aren't out. I think they might be. You also need to think of the time value of money. If they are taking the risk, and waiting for defered payment it should be longer.
I was watching a show on megaman. The lead designer pointed to an older image of megaman, and said if someone did it today, he would say redo it. From what I know, it's the employer who decides the quality of work. But take it as they may, different states have different laws. I would be very careful at giving legal advice on a public forum.
I've also been working on getting a game marketed, produced, etc. Which hasn't been pretty. Finding people of any age, that are reliable is tough especially when you have a particular skill that needs to be fulfilled. I think it's easier to start a studio when people are in one area instead of on the internet. Alot of technical problems can happen virus, etc. etc.
I can sympthize with you that you don't want to turn people down. You want to give them a chance. If so you can give them an interview. Thing is too, it is the team leader that will determine whether a game will be successful or not. Not necessarily the community. I would say go to more than one community.
Perhaps I'll start my own studio, hmmm.... Perhaps one day. We'll see.
I've been on five "commercial" different game teams, over the past 3 years. I took other jobs to pay my expenses through college. Did game development on the side.
Of those five teams, two are no longer around, one is on a "break", another is doing another project, and only one is still around. A contract means nothing if the corporation is still around. Yes it's good experience. So two have so far made it. So far the those projects still aren't out. I think they might be. You also need to think of the time value of money. If they are taking the risk, and waiting for defered payment it should be longer.
I was watching a show on megaman. The lead designer pointed to an older image of megaman, and said if someone did it today, he would say redo it. From what I know, it's the employer who decides the quality of work. But take it as they may, different states have different laws. I would be very careful at giving legal advice on a public forum.
I've also been working on getting a game marketed, produced, etc. Which hasn't been pretty. Finding people of any age, that are reliable is tough especially when you have a particular skill that needs to be fulfilled. I think it's easier to start a studio when people are in one area instead of on the internet. Alot of technical problems can happen virus, etc. etc.
I can sympthize with you that you don't want to turn people down. You want to give them a chance. If so you can give them an interview. Thing is too, it is the team leader that will determine whether a game will be successful or not. Not necessarily the community. I would say go to more than one community.
Perhaps I'll start my own studio, hmmm.... Perhaps one day. We'll see.
Irony?
Solutions: Change the policy or change the management.
Quote:Warmest Regards-
Jay A. Wollin (Navarone)
Epiphany 6 Studios
San Diego, CA
JayWollin@e6studios.com (criticisms openly welcomed and encouraged)
Solutions: Change the policy or change the management.
I think that one factor that is overlooked here is the attractiveness of the potential employer.
What you are basically offering is a type of internship.
This sort of work relationship between seasoned veterans and noobs has been around for ages, and in several fields.
All great artists had an apprentice following them around trying to pick up as much knowledge as possible, some becoming reknowned professionals themselves.
If we look at modern times, I can think of a few examples where this might work. That is, where people will be willing to work for little or no money at all:
1. Film student - work as an apprentice of Spielberg.
2. Boxer - training partner of world champion.
3. Aspiring 3D programmer - work at id
4. Aspiring game designer - work as an apprentice of Sid Meier.
All of these have something in common : The employer is well known at his field, and just putting his name next to yours is a real CASHABLE benefit (finding future work etc.).
Not only do I believe that people will be willing to work for free for such employers, I think than more than a few might actually be willing to pay money for the privilege.
No offense, but I believe that you are not yet in that position where people fall at your feet at the GDC chanting "we're not worthy".
Back to my first point -> Your offer has to be attractive, period. There are many paths toward this (the famous one being payment), but the path you chose works only if the potential employee really feels that it is an honor you have bestowed upon him. Judging from what you say, they don't, and I can't say that I blame them.
Assuming that the people on the forum believe you are either a noob or intermediate employer, they will expect a percentage of future profits or some sort of small payment.
Good luck! [smile]
What you are basically offering is a type of internship.
This sort of work relationship between seasoned veterans and noobs has been around for ages, and in several fields.
All great artists had an apprentice following them around trying to pick up as much knowledge as possible, some becoming reknowned professionals themselves.
If we look at modern times, I can think of a few examples where this might work. That is, where people will be willing to work for little or no money at all:
1. Film student - work as an apprentice of Spielberg.
2. Boxer - training partner of world champion.
3. Aspiring 3D programmer - work at id
4. Aspiring game designer - work as an apprentice of Sid Meier.
All of these have something in common : The employer is well known at his field, and just putting his name next to yours is a real CASHABLE benefit (finding future work etc.).
Not only do I believe that people will be willing to work for free for such employers, I think than more than a few might actually be willing to pay money for the privilege.
No offense, but I believe that you are not yet in that position where people fall at your feet at the GDC chanting "we're not worthy".
Back to my first point -> Your offer has to be attractive, period. There are many paths toward this (the famous one being payment), but the path you chose works only if the potential employee really feels that it is an honor you have bestowed upon him. Judging from what you say, they don't, and I can't say that I blame them.
Assuming that the people on the forum believe you are either a noob or intermediate employer, they will expect a percentage of future profits or some sort of small payment.
Good luck! [smile]
I am not having a go at you, simply explaining why people react the way they do.
You state that you are a musician and that you run a game development company - Note: Current tense, so not that you WANT to run one.
A visit to the stated website reveals no info about previous titles, no info about the current titles, no info about the "company", its management or staff. - Of course there could be a great reason for this but it doesn't matter. People will just assume your company doesn't really exists.
Maybe they cut you some slack and check out the online phone book - nope. No listing for a company under that name
Web search - Up pops old out of date listings for Epiphany 6 as a music company and posts from you stating you are a musician. In addition a forum post in a different forum stating that (in May 2004) you have investors and a publisher for your game. - Now, either you have investors (and therefor money) or you don't. "Talking to investors" isn't the same thing because they will happily talk to anyone, even if they don't intend to invest.
Conclusion? Pretty much the only conclusion people would draw is that you aren't actually being totally frank as to your situation. You are not actually a developer, you don't run a development company and you don't have investors (otherwise you would be able to pay people). You are in fact someone with no industry experience seeking to break into the industry just like them.
The people here (and in similar forums) aren't stupid or lazy as you think. They know that such a team's chances of success are close to zero (and hence any offer of later remuneration is virtually worthless). Still I am sure many would be happy to join in if:
a) Your were more accurate in describing the real situation, and
b) You share ALL the benefits (both profit and equity) with the people who are taking exactly the same risk you are.
Standard corporate practice is that the rewards go to those who take the risk. You are not offering anything of value so anyone joining you is taking the same risk you are and deserves an equal share.
So, to answer your original question "I wanted to know if anyone else feels the same way that I do. (sic) The answer is no, I don't. You got the response that your proposal deserved.
As I said at the start of this post I am not having a go at you, simply explaining why people react the way they do. You can either bitch about it, say we are being harsh and that everyone else is a fool for passing up the golden opportunity, or you can learn from it and alter direction onto a path that has a chance of leading you where you want to go.
You state that you are a musician and that you run a game development company - Note: Current tense, so not that you WANT to run one.
A visit to the stated website reveals no info about previous titles, no info about the current titles, no info about the "company", its management or staff. - Of course there could be a great reason for this but it doesn't matter. People will just assume your company doesn't really exists.
Maybe they cut you some slack and check out the online phone book - nope. No listing for a company under that name
Web search - Up pops old out of date listings for Epiphany 6 as a music company and posts from you stating you are a musician. In addition a forum post in a different forum stating that (in May 2004) you have investors and a publisher for your game. - Now, either you have investors (and therefor money) or you don't. "Talking to investors" isn't the same thing because they will happily talk to anyone, even if they don't intend to invest.
Conclusion? Pretty much the only conclusion people would draw is that you aren't actually being totally frank as to your situation. You are not actually a developer, you don't run a development company and you don't have investors (otherwise you would be able to pay people). You are in fact someone with no industry experience seeking to break into the industry just like them.
The people here (and in similar forums) aren't stupid or lazy as you think. They know that such a team's chances of success are close to zero (and hence any offer of later remuneration is virtually worthless). Still I am sure many would be happy to join in if:
a) Your were more accurate in describing the real situation, and
b) You share ALL the benefits (both profit and equity) with the people who are taking exactly the same risk you are.
Standard corporate practice is that the rewards go to those who take the risk. You are not offering anything of value so anyone joining you is taking the same risk you are and deserves an equal share.
So, to answer your original question "I wanted to know if anyone else feels the same way that I do. (sic) The answer is no, I don't. You got the response that your proposal deserved.
As I said at the start of this post I am not having a go at you, simply explaining why people react the way they do. You can either bitch about it, say we are being harsh and that everyone else is a fool for passing up the golden opportunity, or you can learn from it and alter direction onto a path that has a chance of leading you where you want to go.
Author
All I have to say is that I love how people are not getting the part where I repeatedly stated that I am not speaking on behalf of my company or it's policies... What part of that are people not understanding?
I really don't feel as though I have to defend my company or it's policies in here based off of statements made regarding my own opinions.
I will say this ONE MORE TIME, maybe people will get it this time. I am speaking on the defense of smaller teams looking for help, not myself.
Sure, I posted in here looking for an artist in the help wanted forum, I wanted to know if there were any interested artists. Guess what, we found one! Go figure it wasn't here that we found him either.
I don't feel comfortable using people's names as ammunition for personal debates so suffice it to say that we apparently are a solid enough team as to attract the interest of a 20 year vet who started with Bally Midway.
You can feel free to check on our website (which is currently in a state of disarray admitedly,) but please check back regularly, see for yourself where things are headed. Don't take my word for it.
But for the love of god people, LISTEN! I am not going to tell you again that I am voicing PERSONAL opnions in here. Leave my company's policies out of it because let's face it. None of you know a THING about Epiphany 6 Studios, which... brace for it... is INTENTIONAL.
I really don't feel as though I have to defend my company or it's policies in here based off of statements made regarding my own opinions.
I will say this ONE MORE TIME, maybe people will get it this time. I am speaking on the defense of smaller teams looking for help, not myself.
Sure, I posted in here looking for an artist in the help wanted forum, I wanted to know if there were any interested artists. Guess what, we found one! Go figure it wasn't here that we found him either.
I don't feel comfortable using people's names as ammunition for personal debates so suffice it to say that we apparently are a solid enough team as to attract the interest of a 20 year vet who started with Bally Midway.
You can feel free to check on our website (which is currently in a state of disarray admitedly,) but please check back regularly, see for yourself where things are headed. Don't take my word for it.
But for the love of god people, LISTEN! I am not going to tell you again that I am voicing PERSONAL opnions in here. Leave my company's policies out of it because let's face it. None of you know a THING about Epiphany 6 Studios, which... brace for it... is INTENTIONAL.
Author
OBSCURE: Thank you for the direct answer, and thank you for bringing to light the other side of the coin in a more professional and enlightened approach.
I will now attempt to clear up our situation. Despite my pleas to not confuse my personal opinions with those of my company, I think at this point I either must defend my company or risk some serious loss of credibility.
My last post above was written before your post I simply had forgotten to submit it before going out for a smoke, so please don't take those words as your response.
For the record, Epiphany 6 Studios is a startup still. Yes I CURRENTLY run a development company, we have a full development team, and have several engines being developed in house. We have three full games in development at the current time. HOWEVER, we have not retailed yet as a team, which is what we are currently working on. We know as well as anyone that we need that little gold star before we can be taken seriously. There is a lot of experience within our ranks, but no solid retail stemming from E6 directly.
As for our website, we entered into a deal with a Denver based company (who I will keep nameless because I am not trying to make anyone look bad.) This company was acting as our investment source as well as a publishing source (which also clears up our previous talks of haveing a publisher.) This company also took care of our hosting. Since then... relations have fallen far south with them and we are currently, a. recovering from the loss of our previous website, b. recovering from the loss of an investor, c. recovering from the loss of a publisher.
This break up so to speak is also the primary reason we are shutting up and hiding away. Because as it stands we don't have anything to offer except working on a game that WILL retal even if we have to sell it ourselves. I am not going to say it will make millions, if it did I would worry.
I don't make a point of publicizing such things because they are not flattering facts by any means. Therefore if someone were in fact interested in working with us they would be dealt with on a personal level and have more than a fair opportunity to work out any deatails of their individual contract with us before signing on to anything.
I will now attempt to clear up our situation. Despite my pleas to not confuse my personal opinions with those of my company, I think at this point I either must defend my company or risk some serious loss of credibility.
My last post above was written before your post I simply had forgotten to submit it before going out for a smoke, so please don't take those words as your response.
For the record, Epiphany 6 Studios is a startup still. Yes I CURRENTLY run a development company, we have a full development team, and have several engines being developed in house. We have three full games in development at the current time. HOWEVER, we have not retailed yet as a team, which is what we are currently working on. We know as well as anyone that we need that little gold star before we can be taken seriously. There is a lot of experience within our ranks, but no solid retail stemming from E6 directly.
As for our website, we entered into a deal with a Denver based company (who I will keep nameless because I am not trying to make anyone look bad.) This company was acting as our investment source as well as a publishing source (which also clears up our previous talks of haveing a publisher.) This company also took care of our hosting. Since then... relations have fallen far south with them and we are currently, a. recovering from the loss of our previous website, b. recovering from the loss of an investor, c. recovering from the loss of a publisher.
This break up so to speak is also the primary reason we are shutting up and hiding away. Because as it stands we don't have anything to offer except working on a game that WILL retal even if we have to sell it ourselves. I am not going to say it will make millions, if it did I would worry.
I don't make a point of publicizing such things because they are not flattering facts by any means. Therefore if someone were in fact interested in working with us they would be dealt with on a personal level and have more than a fair opportunity to work out any deatails of their individual contract with us before signing on to anything.
Quote:Original post by adiash
No offense, but I believe that you are not yet in that position where people fall at your feet at the GDC chanting "we're not worthy".
Does it count if you've been trampled in the path of said fanboyz because you were trying to talk to Peter Molyneux? If so, I'm sorted.
...I'm also bruised, from where I was roughly shoved out of the way by the rugby-scrum (I believe that's the collective noun for them ;)) of fanboys-seeking-autographs.
It was *scary*, I'm telling you; you don't wanna mess with fanboyz!
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