DarkThrone, here are a couple of things you should keep near the forefront of your mind when considering Artificial Intelligence and this forum in particular:
(1) This is a game development website and so, it is not concerned with the creation of intelligence (artificial or otherwise) but rather the illusion of intelligence in artificial systems (namely games). It is not necessary that game AI actually enact intelligence, be it human or otherwise.
(2) Artificial Intelligence is not solely concerned with replicating or explaining human intelligence. Pschology seeks to explain human intelligence, while strong AI seeks to replicate it by artificial means. Many AI researchers and practitioners are interested in the more general question of how to act intelligently. Others are concerned with issues in, for example, knowledge representation andlearning. There are not too many AI researchers out there who are researching consciousness. There are certainly more neuropsychologists and psychologists doing that.
(3) You are correct in that Mathematics is but a tool, just as physics is a tool. It is useful for modelling and explaining our Universe. Mathematics though is a language (for example, it is the language of choice of many physicists when explaining their theories) and within the artificial intelligence community, it is a useful language for conveying ideas, algorithms and even models of 'intelligence'. There are certainly other languages in use (e.g., logic), but you'll find that to be successful in understanding and contributing to AI, you'll need to understand mathematics. (This is not to suggest you don't already understand it... but don't cast it aside as having nothing useful to say about AI).
(4) My final point is this; looking at life around you (other people, insects, animals) won't lead you to solutions in AI. It will merely give you examples of behaviour that you might want your AI to embody. Creating AI is a lot harder than describing AI (i.e., the outward behaviour it creates).
Cheers,
Timkin
(P.S. Note, it's 'Timkin', NOT 'Thinkin'... and you make it sound like I lifted my leg against a tree and 'marked my territory' :P )
Why is so hard to find anything useful?
Author
Ok Timkin... (Timkim is your name?) Sorry about grammar. Lot of hours in front a computer can be this somewhile.
Do you know Project Wonder J?
And if you refer to I thanks for your presence, it's because suppose the moderator have more important things to do instead of reply topics of a frustated programmer. (To avoid confusion , ME = frustated programmer).
I just timkin (sorry...i'm joking) thinkin' that a game can be fun with a big enhanced IA. And is not just me, 30% of posts are to NON-related game IA. On true, I post this because all mathemathic formulas are so complicated, and I say this many times. I mean that theory will can more simple (something next to ALGOL) not only to begginners, but also to people that have no free time and need a clear, easy understable theory.
And with your respect and trying to offend you, you should see:
1. It's a game development site, where IA is part of.
2. The forums are separated for topics.
3. People have the right of read what topic they want.
4. Human intelligence is IA related.
And to finish I'd really loved to play this RPG games during 72 hours without sleep. The controller drop of my hand many times (for this was so hard to finish).
Daerax post me useful links, really. With pacience I finally found a way to continue. If you see, many replies query me about the thing I post here. I am just reply them in the form what I know, and with all info I gather. If it's useful, each one can decide by yourself.
[Edited by - DarkThrone on June 20, 2005 6:23:46 AM]
Do you know Project Wonder J?
And if you refer to I thanks for your presence, it's because suppose the moderator have more important things to do instead of reply topics of a frustated programmer. (To avoid confusion , ME = frustated programmer).
I just timkin (sorry...i'm joking) thinkin' that a game can be fun with a big enhanced IA. And is not just me, 30% of posts are to NON-related game IA. On true, I post this because all mathemathic formulas are so complicated, and I say this many times. I mean that theory will can more simple (something next to ALGOL) not only to begginners, but also to people that have no free time and need a clear, easy understable theory.
And with your respect and trying to offend you, you should see:
1. It's a game development site, where IA is part of.
2. The forums are separated for topics.
3. People have the right of read what topic they want.
4. Human intelligence is IA related.
And to finish I'd really loved to play this RPG games during 72 hours without sleep. The controller drop of my hand many times (for this was so hard to finish).
Daerax post me useful links, really. With pacience I finally found a way to continue. If you see, many replies query me about the thing I post here. I am just reply them in the form what I know, and with all info I gather. If it's useful, each one can decide by yourself.
[Edited by - DarkThrone on June 20, 2005 6:23:46 AM]
We are constantly learning new things about insects. For example, those african termites build airconditioning inside their homes so it's not as simple as dropping dirt randomly. Also, I was watching ants the other day on tv and we don't even fully understand how they communicate chemically and it seems they have entire language we don't get. There is so much to learn that I don't think we have a closed book on it. Math starts to make sense once you put it into good use since it's a tool and every tool not used is useless and soon forgotten.
Darkthrone :
Mathematics, as has been said, are just a tool. But to put it a better way, they are a language, and just like any language, if you learn it well, you will open up new horizons. For instance, take you English. It's a bit broken, but because you speak it and understand it, you can post to this forum, and hopefully learn some things from the exchange. You could always stick to Portuguese and I am sure you could find resources, but because of the extra language, you have access to so much more.
Well, it's the same with Mathematics. I am not terribly keen on the subject, but when I am reading one of those Neural Networks texts and the author starts rambling using Mathematical notation, it comes handy, and it allows me to learn more than if I stuck to simple English.
Now to counter this, and that's something I am particularly adamant, having the eperience of teaching; the fact is that to explain something, you don't need Mathematics, if you are good enough. Maths are useful for modeling a problem, but when you are trying to explain a concept to someone, I don't see the particular reason why one couldn't make the effort and try to explain things in proper English.
Again, it's a question of target audience, I suppose.
Amusingly, I would say the same goes for giving sample code, as opposed to explaining a concept in plain English...
Writing sample code, writing a formula, to me it's just being lazy (as a teacher).
On a different note, I cannot understand why everytime I read about AI (and that has been for the last five years I have worked on this damned MSc) I see so little mention of non AI books. I mean, sure, you get the odd Biology book when the subject matters, but seriously, my general impression of the field is that despite the potential for cross referencing, the norm is more to self referencing...
Personally, I have read a few little gems over my Research that didn't have much to do with AI. But interestingly enough, they were the ones that fired me up the most. Stuff like Animal Behaviour, Swarm Intelligence (how various insect species create their nests, brilliant stuff)...
I even picked _The Selfish Gene_ by Richard Dawkins completely by accident as I was browsing the Biology section of the school Library, and God knows this is probably the coolest book I have read in the last few years.
Another I picked while going through the airport is _Guns, Germs and Steel_, again, you'd think it's completely non related. But the first thing I thought of when I read it was how this could be a great source to write a Civilisation game, but with an emergence twist.
Good God, even browsing through Neurology textbooks from 30 years ago, I had more ideas popping in my head than while reading through Neural Networks books... there are so many aspects of Neurons that are left out when you use a Mathematical Model, it's quite a shocking thing.
Anyway, I am rambling. But I generally agree with DarkThrone, there isn't a lot of really useful stuff around. I know, I have searched for quite some time.
Don't misunderstand me, though. There are quite a few useful people, and people who are adressing this situation. If I had had the books that are out there now 5 years ago, I certainly would have finished that damn MSc... [rolleyes]
Ah well
Mathematics, as has been said, are just a tool. But to put it a better way, they are a language, and just like any language, if you learn it well, you will open up new horizons. For instance, take you English. It's a bit broken, but because you speak it and understand it, you can post to this forum, and hopefully learn some things from the exchange. You could always stick to Portuguese and I am sure you could find resources, but because of the extra language, you have access to so much more.
Well, it's the same with Mathematics. I am not terribly keen on the subject, but when I am reading one of those Neural Networks texts and the author starts rambling using Mathematical notation, it comes handy, and it allows me to learn more than if I stuck to simple English.
Now to counter this, and that's something I am particularly adamant, having the eperience of teaching; the fact is that to explain something, you don't need Mathematics, if you are good enough. Maths are useful for modeling a problem, but when you are trying to explain a concept to someone, I don't see the particular reason why one couldn't make the effort and try to explain things in proper English.
Again, it's a question of target audience, I suppose.
Amusingly, I would say the same goes for giving sample code, as opposed to explaining a concept in plain English...
Writing sample code, writing a formula, to me it's just being lazy (as a teacher).
On a different note, I cannot understand why everytime I read about AI (and that has been for the last five years I have worked on this damned MSc) I see so little mention of non AI books. I mean, sure, you get the odd Biology book when the subject matters, but seriously, my general impression of the field is that despite the potential for cross referencing, the norm is more to self referencing...
Personally, I have read a few little gems over my Research that didn't have much to do with AI. But interestingly enough, they were the ones that fired me up the most. Stuff like Animal Behaviour, Swarm Intelligence (how various insect species create their nests, brilliant stuff)...
I even picked _The Selfish Gene_ by Richard Dawkins completely by accident as I was browsing the Biology section of the school Library, and God knows this is probably the coolest book I have read in the last few years.
Another I picked while going through the airport is _Guns, Germs and Steel_, again, you'd think it's completely non related. But the first thing I thought of when I read it was how this could be a great source to write a Civilisation game, but with an emergence twist.
Good God, even browsing through Neurology textbooks from 30 years ago, I had more ideas popping in my head than while reading through Neural Networks books... there are so many aspects of Neurons that are left out when you use a Mathematical Model, it's quite a shocking thing.
Anyway, I am rambling. But I generally agree with DarkThrone, there isn't a lot of really useful stuff around. I know, I have searched for quite some time.
Don't misunderstand me, though. There are quite a few useful people, and people who are adressing this situation. If I had had the books that are out there now 5 years ago, I certainly would have finished that damn MSc... [rolleyes]
Ah well
Author
Really are few people helpful ( not useable, that means to some that "We want to use them, instead of keep a little help" ). My English is really broken, I pass last 12 years on a self-learnin journey, with books, music and some basic concepts learning on school.
What really bore me is the fact that VERY complex formulas are used to do it.
And too, only with this post REALLY some help me. Three posts and no responses are given.
What really bore me is the fact that VERY complex formulas are used to do it.
And too, only with this post REALLY some help me. Three posts and no responses are given.
Well, if you are self taught, your English is certainly better than my Portuguese [wink]
Still, if you improve it, you will definitely find it useful.
Plus it's always funny to have a better grasp of the language than the average native speaker, which isn't very uncommon once you start frequenting forums populated with illiterate teenagers (no, no, not Gamedev. Well, OK, maybe the Lounge, sometimes [grin] )
Still, if you improve it, you will definitely find it useful.
Plus it's always funny to have a better grasp of the language than the average native speaker, which isn't very uncommon once you start frequenting forums populated with illiterate teenagers (no, no, not Gamedev. Well, OK, maybe the Lounge, sometimes [grin] )
Author
Well, let me tell a story.
One day, I have a dream. In your homes, people have computers.
People that lives alone had in your computer a good listener, a friend, someone to trust. People that live in family had in your computer a good tutor to your children. Scientists had in your computer a real apprentice.
"I, Robot" and "Ghost in the Shell" cites a theory that I don't know if is real-based or not. "In a system, ramdonly protocols that approach that we called "soul"."
The Ghost in the Shell theory exists on true? What I find it, if exists?
One day, I have a dream. In your homes, people have computers.
People that lives alone had in your computer a good listener, a friend, someone to trust. People that live in family had in your computer a good tutor to your children. Scientists had in your computer a real apprentice.
"I, Robot" and "Ghost in the Shell" cites a theory that I don't know if is real-based or not. "In a system, ramdonly protocols that approach that we called "soul"."
The Ghost in the Shell theory exists on true? What I find it, if exists?
Machines can have soul if they are designed that way. Robots of future will have soul designed out since we can't have slaves. Besides they could kill us easily if we give them soul and enslave them. That's too dangerous. So we'll have servants but not emotional ones internally, only simulated externally to be more pleasing to humans.
Author
Huh?
Well, I'll take care of my toaster, or it attacks me with a deadly burning loaf slice. Sorry, I have to say...
Take it serious, sorry about point this question. I just say "People have your computer a friend". You are a slaver? You slave your dog? Slave your mother? Slave your girlfriend?
Why you just slave a machine? God slave you?
If you drive, take care, your car may be nervous...
well, I just ask for "ghost in the shell" theory, with no intentions of promove a way to use it, only to gather info.
Well, I'll take care of my toaster, or it attacks me with a deadly burning loaf slice. Sorry, I have to say...
Take it serious, sorry about point this question. I just say "People have your computer a friend". You are a slaver? You slave your dog? Slave your mother? Slave your girlfriend?
Why you just slave a machine? God slave you?
If you drive, take care, your car may be nervous...
well, I just ask for "ghost in the shell" theory, with no intentions of promove a way to use it, only to gather info.
This topic is closed to new replies.
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