Quote:Original post by kseh
I don't particularly see much in the way of people hating or fearing other people because of their race, but we definatly still form our own stereotypes and prejudices. Lots of disparity in Canada which could create real racism if things go badly enough.

Yes and that's what make people like Le Pen play some role at one point or another, because they can play the prophets at one moment or another : "I told you so". And this backs their demagogy with an undeserved credibility. So beware of angelism or hypocracy.

The problems must be detected soon enough, not when it's too late. For instance when the parents and adults in theses cites have lost all authority on their children. Then you get professionnal riotters and gangsters.

(to respond to Lessbread and those worried ...)
Last week-end I was in an underground and popular bar / nite-club, with a very mixed population (arabs, blacks, asians whites, punks, middle class) and I did not see any racial or social tension at all. You certainly have some drug dealers, even thieves in such places. Still isn't it strange for a racist country, while such relatively grave events happen ? But should I generalize since I only live 365 days a year in this country ? ;)

Quote:Original post by LessBread
I don't find that blog very convincing.

Neither do I, but figured it could provide some discussion material. And the lack of evidence on this site could be used to support the argument that this is clearly not a jihad.

Is it an intifada? Blog entry with lots of links on both side of the debate.

Quote:Now interracial breeding rates ? Still not interested to know about the only undiscutable scale that one can imagine to test wether a country is racist or not in the heart and soul. Flesh and blood and not just in worthless partial political appreciations ? Tell me that this has nothing to do ! Or is there something shocking here ?

Im just going to reply to this question as the reasons for me using this forum are motivated by interests in video games and not foreign politics. But thanks , that was an very intriging discussion i hope people learned more about what is going in France and why its going on ...

even tho it degenerated in some paragraph into more personal debates i believe we both provided good insights.

As for inter-racial couples , Canada as one of the highest rates in the world and the vancouver / toronto regions have the highest counts in the world . Quebec is the place where chinese girls are most wanted for adoption in the world and the canadian gouverment recently signed an agreement with Vietnam to facilitate the "mass adoptions" of vietnamise kids by canadian parents.

as for the low treshold level i would say its for political in-correct things in general. We tolerate our pears with GREAT patience and understanding.

I have to be honest and tell you that like everywhere else some isolated "crisis" emerge from time to time... like a radio talk show host that said " Blacks are less intelligent than whites because of the artificial selection they went trough in the days of slavery , the strongest ones were kept alive where the clever one were shot " . People reacted in mass and with a very strong opposition to is comments no matter what the source was , people did not see any relevance in stating such a supposition at all.

Some muslim cleric also called jews "monkeys " to wich certain jews responded they have all the rigths to act like they were doing in gaza. ( that was before they moved out )

But those comments often emerge from 1 "extremist " person and they are rapidly repressed in masses by the population. In general i think we have a very good record on inter-racial tolerance and we feel united and equal even tho we are all so different. Something very few nations can do.

Tonight your government is going to "resurect" a 50 years old law that was used after world war 2 to help control insurgents in your colonies... lets hope they avoid the pitfalls they went trougth at that time and resolved this issue for the good of everyone.

see you in a more "game related channel ". as you seem to be an intelligent person , i would be more than interested to further extent this relationship but in game related channels.

here i leave this conversation with no animosity whatsoever,



and i just read that comment on Canada not being an Utopia for immigrants its true , utopia is nowhere on this planet :)

Cya !

[Edited by - sinx on November 8, 2005 4:40:24 PM]

Happened to catch this on FoxNews yesterday evening.

KUPCHAN: Is it Islamic in nature? Yes and no. It is in the sense that the violence is coming primarily from Islamic youth, Muslim youths, who are disaffected; they don’t feel that they have entry into the social mainstream. It’s not, however, being organized by mosques or in any way supported by the broader community of Muslims within France.

HUME: And so there’s no radical clerics that are egging these kids on or anything like that?

KUPCHAN: No, it is not an ideological thing. It is a mix of hooliganism, kids who are just hanging out unemployed and getting into trouble, with this kind of seething sense of here we are, Frenchmen, we have French passports, we’re French citizens, but we are treated as second-class citizens.

HUME: Now, why do we not have a problem in this country? We have not as significant a percentage, certainly, but we have a large number of people who are from these immigrant communities — and why is it different here?

KUPCHAN: I think it’s because this is not just a question of deprivation. It’s a question of social polarization. The United States is an immigrant country from the very beginning. People come here, and regardless of religion, skin color, their homeland, they are integrated into the social mainstream. And that’s because we have a civic definition of citizenship. If you’re here, you participate, you’re an American.

In France, on the books, you have a civic definition of citizenship, but deep down inside in people’s minds, ethnicity still matters.

HUME: So this is a racial matter then?

KUPCHAN: It’s racial, and it’s a mind-set. For example, someone would say that these immigrants are Frenchmen, but they would not say that they’re Francais de souche, which means of French stock. it’s that difference.

HUME: Well, that’s really — we’re talking about the kind of ethnic attitude that if this were happening in this country, and there were these attitudes, people would be calling this racism.

KUPCHAN: It is a form of racism, and it goes to the heart of what the nation means to Europeans.

Quote:Original post by maximAL

Quote:Original post by sinxI would suggest Canada as the least racist nation, here integration doest mean fitting people in our standarts... it means celebrating our differences and making it all work no matter how different we are...

could it be, that canada is/was stricter on immigration? as far as i see the immigrants in france came mostly from (former) colonies and obviously there was a big uncontrolled influx of mostly uneducated people.
did this ever happen in canada? really, i don't know.

havent you heard of the canadian underground railway ? more than 40 000 African Americans were saved from slavery by Canadians who helped them come to Canada where slavery was illegal and not socialy accepted. These people had no education whatsoever. You are right on one point, this was not "uncontrolled " it was volantary humanitarian work. In the 1850, 40 000 was a lot of people for Canada.

http://gocanada.about.com/od/southernontari1/a/niagarafreedom.htm

sorry i know i said i was going elsewhere but i had to reply to this in-informed comment , especially since this was one of the greatest moments of our history.

ok now im really gone :) thats way too much political talk for such a short time... ill stay tuned on the news to see all this turns out... hopefully for the best.

[Edited by - sinx on November 8, 2005 5:30:05 PM]

Quote:Original post by Silvermyst

Quote:Original post by LessBread
I don't find that blog very convincing.

Neither do I, but figured it could provide some discussion material. And the lack of evidence on this site could be used to support the argument that this is clearly not a jihad.

That's good to know [smile]

I think these riots could lead to something like a jihad if they don't lead to successful reforms, but I would prefer that they spur community leaders in disaffected areas to take more agressive but peaceful actions to remedy the underlying causes.

The Fox News analyst seems on target, but I think Hume goaded him into saying it was racism. Imo, FoxNews has an institutional difficulty thinking outside of the box and prefers to use stereotypes whenever possible.

Quote:Original post by sinx In the 1850, 40 000 was a lot of people for Canada.

oh well, in 1850 being "uneducated" was state of the art. you really want to compare that to people who have little education (sometimes even can poorly wright or read) moving into a modern western country, where education is everything?

Quote:Original post by maximAL

Quote:Original post by sinx In the 1850, 40 000 was a lot of people for Canada.

oh well, in 1850 being "uneducated" was state of the art. you really want to compare that to people who have little education (sometimes even can poorly wright or read) moving into a modern western country, where education is everything?

----from the gouvernment------
The most informative measure of illegal immigration for policy is growth in the population that enters and stays. This number is 200,000 to 300,000 a year.

The absolute number of immigrants a year who enter and stay—currently about 1.1 million (legal and illegal)—
-----------------------------

For a country of 30 millions that sounds a lot to me , i assume if you choosed the really dangerous and more expensive illegal way , its because you did not meet the requirements , so lacking the required education / language level is probably the main reason.