Question about job placement
Author
Firt of all, I hope that this topic is posted in the right section. If it is not, I apologize.
The reason for my post is that I have definitely come to the decision that I would like to be employed, or employ others in the gaming industry. I have read much about the industry and all the articles out there on the web. What I need feedback on is whether or not to continue education and/or training.
Currently I am a Junior at UMass Amherst. Unlike everyone else's resume I have seen, my major is Classics (Study of Ancient Greece and Rome). As well as a Medieval Studies Certificate and a IT Minor (Various programming and 3d graphics/animation classes). So what might I want to do with all this? I want to design games...eventually. I realize the 'ladder' system that is in this industry prevents entry level jobs such as 'Game Designer' or such. On my own time I have taught myself Maya (intensively) and the basics of C++ while also learning Java in class.
I have begun looking at other schools around the country that offer training in 3d Animation/Modeling and Game Design. Do I stand a chance landing a job when I graduate with my B.A., or should I pursue specialized training at a facility such as DigiPen or Full Sail?
My interests are mainly in creative writing (plots of games) and gameplay structure. But I don't really care what kind of job I start out as (Artist seems much easier than programmer so far).
Any tips/guidance would be much appreciated. I am mostly a self-taught learner, so I don't want to spend the money on more education if I do not have to.
Thank you all for your patience,
Dante Falcone
DigiPen or Full Sail will augment your degree nicely, but you have to consider that these places will train you to be a programmer (or artist) versus a designer, and take two to four more years to complete. It's up to you - I think that if designing is your goal, I wouldn't bother getting another four year degree; a two-year one will be better.
It sounds like you could get an entry level job as a "design oriented" or gameplay programmer, if your programming skills are sharp enough. From there you can move towards design positions.
It sounds like you could get an entry level job as a "design oriented" or gameplay programmer, if your programming skills are sharp enough. From there you can move towards design positions.
I normally wouldn't reply, but I'm in the mood. Your post strikes me the wrong way, so I'm going to rip it to shreds. Take it as constructive criticisim.
Programmers don't have major degrees in ancient history. Nor do they major in information technology. Programmers have degeres in any of computer science, computer programming or (rarely) math and physics. The last two are usually with a CS minor.
I assume that with that degree you might seek for work as an archeologist who helps the IT guys manage the computers in the field.
A BS degree is almost required these days. If you don't have a completed degree, don't put ANY college down. I am not interested in hiring somebody who won't take the effort to finish a degree that they started. If they can't finish the (relatively easy) project called "school", I have no confidence that they can finish the project called "major game".
Remember that you are competing with a 3-inch stack of resumes and cover letters. Somebody with "Dropped out of college, basic C++ skills and 4 months self taught Maya experience" is not going to do well against "7 years c++, 2 demo games attached, MEL scripting to help with shader management."
It's not specific to this industry. A recent graduate with a BS in accounting doesn't start looking for CFO jobs. A BS in art doesn't start looking for work as a museum curator. Nor should beginner game developers try to start out as a game designer, a job title that requires years of experience in seeing what works well and what fails horrificly.
A junior in computer science really ought to know more than 'the basics of C++ and java'. After three years, you ought to be comfortable with at least three computer languages: Java, C++, and one other depending on your school's preference (C#, scheme, fortran, Eiffel, ADA, ...)
When looking for a programming job, you will be competing with people who have intermediate to expert command of the languages being used.
What part of Maya are you learning intensively? A programmer who is skilled in MEL script can be very valuable. Simple model and path manipulation or texturing is not that interesting to me as an employer. Maya scripting is useful as a side trait for programmers, but it isn't very valuable by itself.
See the earlier paragraph about who you are competing against.
"Writer" is not "Game Designer". They are both separate and distinct, as are "Artist" and "Gameplay programmer".
You don't see people hired as testers, promoted to programmers, then moved laterally to artist, then dialog writer. It just doesn't happen.
Writing will not need the other degrees mentioned above. It needs a BS in English or similar Humanities major, along with samples of writing.
Find out what you want to do. Find several paths to that so that when one fails, you have an alternate route.
What you have written ("designer, artist, writer, programmer") is akin to saying "I'm going be a game programmer. If that fails, I'll train to be a fireman. If they turn me down, I'll get some training as a pearl harvester. ..." Each is a very different career path. Each requires different backgrounds. Training and education for one will not help much in another.
Pick one thing, and follow through.
Being a self-taught learner isn't too bad. You can find some jobs using it. It is increasingly difficult in this industry because of competition.
You need to be able to learn by yourself. But you *ALSO* need to have formal education.
Something you are going to have to learn eventually is that if you intend to work smart (ie: use your brain to make money) you will be spending money on education for the rest of your life. If you instead decide to work hard (ie: not use your brain to make money) you will need to spend money on boots with good support.
Quote:Original post by dfalconeYet another vote for adding a Resume and general employment section to the boards.
Firt of all, I hope that this topic is posted in the right section. If it is not, I apologize.
Quote:Original post by dfalconeThose are two VERY different things. One says "I am looking for a job" the other says "I want to be the founder of a company." They have very little overlap.
...I have definitely come to the decision that I would like to be employed, or employ others in the gaming industry.
Quote:Original post by dfalconeI doubt that. ;-) I'm reminded of the joke image showing "Downloading the entire Internet ... Time remaining: 2313 years 17 hours 16 minutes." If you had read the significant stuff, you would have run across Tom Sloper's advice (http://www.sloperama.com/advice.html).
I have read much about the industry and all the articles out there on the web.
Quote:Original post by dfalconeIn this industry, you must be learning every day. Every programmer, artist, designer, writer, and manger must continually learn about the industry. It can be formal or not, but you absolutely must keep learning.
What I need feedback on is whether or not to continue education and/or training.
Quote:Original post by dfalcone
Currently I am a Junior at UMass Amherst. Unlike everyone else's resume I have seen, my major is Classics (Study of Ancient Greece and Rome). As well as a Medieval Studies Certificate and a IT Minor (Various programming and 3d graphics/animation classes). So what might I want to do with all this? I want to design games...eventually.
Programmers don't have major degrees in ancient history. Nor do they major in information technology. Programmers have degeres in any of computer science, computer programming or (rarely) math and physics. The last two are usually with a CS minor.
I assume that with that degree you might seek for work as an archeologist who helps the IT guys manage the computers in the field.
A BS degree is almost required these days. If you don't have a completed degree, don't put ANY college down. I am not interested in hiring somebody who won't take the effort to finish a degree that they started. If they can't finish the (relatively easy) project called "school", I have no confidence that they can finish the project called "major game".
Remember that you are competing with a 3-inch stack of resumes and cover letters. Somebody with "Dropped out of college, basic C++ skills and 4 months self taught Maya experience" is not going to do well against "7 years c++, 2 demo games attached, MEL scripting to help with shader management."
Quote:Original post by dfalcone
I want to design games...eventually. I realize the 'ladder' system that is in this industry prevents entry level jobs such as 'Game Designer' or such.
It's not specific to this industry. A recent graduate with a BS in accounting doesn't start looking for CFO jobs. A BS in art doesn't start looking for work as a museum curator. Nor should beginner game developers try to start out as a game designer, a job title that requires years of experience in seeing what works well and what fails horrificly.
Quote:Original post by dfalconeThose are the same (basically) as a 4 year degree in art or computer programming, depending on your program.
Currently I am a Junior at UMass Amherst. ... On my own time I have taught myself Maya (intensively) and the basics of C++ while also learning Java in class. I have begun looking at other schools around the country that offer training in 3d Animation/Modeling and Game Design. Do I stand a chance landing a job when I graduate with my B.A., or should I pursue specialized training at a facility such as DigiPen or Full Sail?
A junior in computer science really ought to know more than 'the basics of C++ and java'. After three years, you ought to be comfortable with at least three computer languages: Java, C++, and one other depending on your school's preference (C#, scheme, fortran, Eiffel, ADA, ...)
When looking for a programming job, you will be competing with people who have intermediate to expert command of the languages being used.
What part of Maya are you learning intensively? A programmer who is skilled in MEL script can be very valuable. Simple model and path manipulation or texturing is not that interesting to me as an employer. Maya scripting is useful as a side trait for programmers, but it isn't very valuable by itself.
See the earlier paragraph about who you are competing against.
Quote:Original post by dfalcone
...jobs such as 'Game Designer' ... My interests are mainly in creative writing (plots of games) and gameplay structure. But I don't really care what kind of job I start out as (Artist seems much easier than programmer so far).
"Writer" is not "Game Designer". They are both separate and distinct, as are "Artist" and "Gameplay programmer".
You don't see people hired as testers, promoted to programmers, then moved laterally to artist, then dialog writer. It just doesn't happen.
Writing will not need the other degrees mentioned above. It needs a BS in English or similar Humanities major, along with samples of writing.
Quote:Original post by dfalcone
Any tips/guidance would be much appreciated.
Find out what you want to do. Find several paths to that so that when one fails, you have an alternate route.
What you have written ("designer, artist, writer, programmer") is akin to saying "I'm going be a game programmer. If that fails, I'll train to be a fireman. If they turn me down, I'll get some training as a pearl harvester. ..." Each is a very different career path. Each requires different backgrounds. Training and education for one will not help much in another.
Pick one thing, and follow through.
Quote:Original post by dfalcone
I am mostly a self-taught learner, so I don't want to spend the money on more education if I do not have to.
Being a self-taught learner isn't too bad. You can find some jobs using it. It is increasingly difficult in this industry because of competition.
You need to be able to learn by yourself. But you *ALSO* need to have formal education.
Something you are going to have to learn eventually is that if you intend to work smart (ie: use your brain to make money) you will be spending money on education for the rest of your life. If you instead decide to work hard (ie: not use your brain to make money) you will need to spend money on boots with good support.
Author
Thank you for your quick replies. I had not realized that my first post could come accross the wrong way, as Frob pointed out. I study past cultures because I believe that this is beneficial to the entertainment industry, be it movies, novels, games etc... I did not realize there was a difference between designer and writer, I am terribly sorry for the confusion. I just wanted to point out, also, that I would not apply for a job at a company that did not need story driven products. I suppose RPGs are what I would be good for, but I'd rather call them interactive action movies because RPG always gets the impression of Dungeons and Dragons type of stuff.
Frob's post seems to be directed more narrowly toward games programming. I respect programmers very much. I just started learning C++ in november, and it really gets your mind working. I have spent more time (since november) learning 3d Modeling to be more specific (character, weapons, armor mostly).
My goal is to tie history and mythology into PC and Console games.
The reason I said be qualified to look for a job, or start my own company may seem strange to you, I'll admit. If there is no company out there that wants to hire a creative writer, then I will just HAVE to go to one of these game schools to learn the complete process of making a title, then make it.
I will never give this up. I am determined to contribute to the industry. I apologize if I do not sound realistic, but I always finish what I start...so in a way I need to do this.
Thank you for your straight forward answer Jpetrie. After I graduate, I think that I will test the waters and try to find a job. If that doesn't work...2 more years of training.
(Most Respected Titles: Morrowind, Age of Empires II, Gothic, Rise of Nations, Hitman)
Frob's post seems to be directed more narrowly toward games programming. I respect programmers very much. I just started learning C++ in november, and it really gets your mind working. I have spent more time (since november) learning 3d Modeling to be more specific (character, weapons, armor mostly).
My goal is to tie history and mythology into PC and Console games.
The reason I said be qualified to look for a job, or start my own company may seem strange to you, I'll admit. If there is no company out there that wants to hire a creative writer, then I will just HAVE to go to one of these game schools to learn the complete process of making a title, then make it.
I will never give this up. I am determined to contribute to the industry. I apologize if I do not sound realistic, but I always finish what I start...so in a way I need to do this.
Thank you for your straight forward answer Jpetrie. After I graduate, I think that I will test the waters and try to find a job. If that doesn't work...2 more years of training.
(Most Respected Titles: Morrowind, Age of Empires II, Gothic, Rise of Nations, Hitman)
Please read Tom Sloper's advice (http://www.sloperama.com/advice.html) as mentioned earlier. It is all great material that should answer all of your questions. A few of the numbers are faked, but the idea is present.
Pay special attention to lessons 1, 3, 7-21, 25-27, 30-32, 34-37, and 56. These will give you some idea what you are up against. Then go read the ones in between just for informational value.
Tom: I love your site. [smile]
Pay special attention to lessons 1, 3, 7-21, 25-27, 30-32, 34-37, and 56. These will give you some idea what you are up against. Then go read the ones in between just for informational value.
Tom: I love your site. [smile]
Author
Thank you, I am in the process of reading Tom's articles. They are all very informative, and exactly the information I was looking for. Also, Frob, you were absultely right in reacting to my silly comment about having already read ALL the articles out there. That is what I get for not proof reading.
Now I should probably get back to my homework...haha. I need to finish an essay and model an inorganic scene...
Sorry about my frantic post. Once I hit 22, I've been thinking more seriously about a career, actually that is all I have been thinking about.
-DF
Now I should probably get back to my homework...haha. I need to finish an essay and model an inorganic scene...
Sorry about my frantic post. Once I hit 22, I've been thinking more seriously about a career, actually that is all I have been thinking about.
-DF
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