Quote:Original post by Telastyn
It also adds adrenaline to play via the gravity of 'omg I might lose everything!'. I've never understood such thinking, as I don't like thrills. I also can't imagine the thrill of victory is anywhere near the equally likely agony of defeat...

Are you guys even reading this? No one is losing everything. It's more like "omg, I might lose my last few hours of progress!" Which is apparently acceptable in every game that uses saves.

There are some words that just can't be talked about, apparently.

World of Warcraft is probably one of the most polished MMORPGs out there, and it has been from release basically. That's not to say it's flawless, since there's issues with server lag etc. Overall though, it's usually smooth sailing.

Dispite this, there have been times when my character died from events beyond my control, such as server lag and bugs. My point is that I don't think we're at a sufficient level of technology to handle permadeath in MMORPGs in a good way.

And, even if we were, I don't think it really is an option if we use todays MMORPG designs, where several hundred or even thousands of hours is needed to "max out" your character. Even if you "only" lose 10 levels, that can be an extremely harsh penalty. I can't really see how games would become better because of it.

Quote:Original post by abstractimmersion
I should note that this idea didn't actually begin out of a desire to punish players for death, but to loosen up a players commitment to a certain character. If you make some bad optimization decisions mid game, starting a character over at level one is an unappealing rememdy. This system allows and encourages players to dabble in different career paths, and to not start at level one each time.

This element is very appealing to me. There's nothing worse than realizing that, after 400 hours of gameplay, your character is an invalid, with neither the attributes nor the remaining attainable ability points to become anything special.

As to entering lost characters into the "Hall of Fame", is there any game in existence where the top 500 slots of the leaderboard aren't hackers and exploiters? Between the endless list of winbotters on the Starcraft board, the XBox live rankings that serve as a directory of cheaters, Snabo in Timesplitters: Future Perfect (I killed Snabo three times in one match one time. Take that, you shotgun monkey no-reloading wall-clipping bastard!), the stat-padding bastards who comprise the upper echelons of Battlefield 2's chain of command and all the guys on EVE's most wanted list who have "1943" as their date they started training, I don't think there's any way to have a leaderboard with any real value.

Your idea, which I dislike, and EVE's system, which I enjoy, are actually quite similar, as you've noticed. I've been giving it some thought as this thread has advanced, and I have a theory about why I can stomach big losses in EVE (some random pirate just blew up my only ore hauler. No ransom request, no "Yer money or yer ship," no nothing. Just a warp scrambler and a hail of bullets. Bitch.) but find the notion of permadeath in a fantasy-type MMO (and aren't they all fantasy-type MMOs when we imagine them?) totally unpalatable.

The difference is that in EVE, the ship is the gamepiece. It's where all the equipment is mounted, where all the bonuses come from, and it's your instrument of destruction, creation and advancement. Yet it is not your avatar. It isn't your identity in the game. You can meet someone after not seeing them for weeks or months, and they'll have an entirely new set of properties and functions, having totally switched "classes" from a mission-running hauler to a PvP combatant, and you'll say, "Hey, buddy! Nice ship, do you have tech 2 drones in that thing?" With the permanent loss of the ship, you've got to build another one, call it something like "Pheonix III" and set about exacting vengeance (I blew that pirate up with my fighter, and chased her pod out of the system).

But in other MMOs, where your vehicle IS your character, its loss severs your tie to the game. Even if you start at 80% or 100% strength, you have lost your identity. You roll up with a mage called "Ascension584" and your buddies see the little icon by your name, and look you up and say, "Oh, hey man, I see you are the same player that once was OrcHewer43, did you lose that guy or is this an alt?" Too awkward, too clumsy, too disconcerting. It hurts immersion.

Besides, with all the characters getting created and replaced, all the good names would be totally taken up, and you'll wind up having to call yourself "ErdricSonOfWilhelmIIIJr.384958372"

If the death of the character accomplishes nothing, then it's a hassle that could be avoided by just resurrecting them. Go ahead and dock them some stats, and maybe give them a chance to rearrange some of their attribute points, with a penalty.

I've always been a huge fan of the romantic notion of dying in a blaze of glory, so permadeath as part of a complex reward for a huge mission sppeals to me enormously, but once players start getting there, it'll be an endless parade of lemmings to jump off that cliff and drown the demon king in your blood, so the noble gesture and the "permadeath" will just be another stepping-stone in the endless staircase, another spoke on the wheel of grind, another datum on the spreadsheet of character optimization.

Edit: Finally fixed those pesky quote tags. Sorry everyone.

[Edited by - Iron Chef Carnage on March 17, 2006 3:14:04 AM]

I have a question for you, OP. What happens if a character dies twice in quick sucession? For example, someone has that +3 bonus to some skill and they die. They make a new character with +1 in that skill. What happens if this new character dies? Has the player 'unlocked' the +1 in the skill(similiar to Guild Wars)? Does the player loose all bonuses to that skill?

Just something to think about before you cash in that 1,000,000 dollars.

Quote:Original post by Ezbez
I have a question for you, OP. What happens if a character dies twice in quick sucession? For example, someone has that +3 bonus to some skill and they die. They make a new character with +1 in that skill. What happens if this new character dies? Has the player 'unlocked' the +1 in the skill(similiar to Guild Wars)? Does the player loose all bonuses to that skill?

Just something to think about before you cash in that 1,000,000 dollars.

Quote:Original post by abstractimmersion
And perhaps I haven't made myself totally clear: once the player gets a character creation bonus (like, say, 50% of all mage spells learned), that bonus can NEVER be taken away from him so long as he's a subscriber. After he's gotten a character with 60% learned, he will always have the option of creating one with 50% mage spells learned. (and probably some bonuses to intelligence, magic attack, character level, or whatever)

Quote:Original post by Iron Chef Carnage

As to entering lost characters into the "Hall of Fame", is there any game in existence where the top 500 slots of the leaderboard aren't hackers and exploiters?

I wasn't actually talking about a server-wide or game-wide leaderboard, just some data in the account letting the player look at his past characters.

Quote:
The difference is that in EVE, the ship is the gamepiece. It's where all the equipment is mounted, where all the bonuses come from, and it's your instrument of destruction, creation and advancement. Yet it is not your avatar. It isn't your identity in the game. You can meet someone after not seeing them for weeks or months, and they'll have an entirely new set of properties and functions, having totally switched "classes" from a mission-running hauler to a PvP combatant, and you'll say, "Hey, buddy! Nice ship, do you have tech 2 drones in that thing?" With the permanent loss of the ship, you've got to build another one, call it something like "Pheonix III" and set about exacting vengeance (I blew that pirate up with my fighter, and chased her pod out of the system).

But in other MMOs, where your vehicle IS your character, its loss severs your tie to the game. Even if you start at 80% or 100% strength, you have lost your identity. You roll up with a mage called "Ascension584" and your buddies see the little icon by your name, and look you up and say, "Oh, hey man, I see you are the same player that once was OrcHewer43, did you lose that guy or is this an alt?" Too awkward, too clumsy, too disconcerting. It hurts immersion.

Besides, with all the characters getting created and replaced, all the good names would be totally taken up, and you'll wind up having to call yourself "ErdricSonOfWilhelmIIIJr.384958372"

Well, you wouldn't necessarily have to have unique character names. Especially if you're going to be losing a few, it might not be a good idea.

I see what you're saying...but I guess that's part of the penalty here. And like I said, nothing is really stopping a guy from losing Roland the paladin and then starting back out as Roland the paladin at 80% strength.