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Boost/STL in games?

I. M. McIntosh · 2006-04-26T17:16:55

I think a lot of people who are arguing against the use of STL are picking conveniently inappropriate examples. Obviously, std::set is not going to be optimal for a tight memory budget, because of its general purpose nature and the way it handles collections. I've seen no argument as to why some of the more basic bits of STL or boost shouldn't be used as a solid base on which you can build a more specialized utility library. Just as a few examples, I can see no objection to using std::string, std::vector, std::pair, boost::pool, boost::compressed_pair, boost::dynamic_bitset, and the list goes on. I think the reason peopole are objecting so vehemently to Christer's original statementis that his claim was that STL was entirely useless, essentially because of the overhead incurred by its general purpose nature. While I don't think anybody will disagree that some parts of STL are certainly ill suited to console programming, there are still some very functional and lightweight classes in there which can be used as a time tested base on which to build a more specialized utility library.

General and Gameplay Programming Programming

Started by johnnyk April 23, 2006 06:38 AM

44 comments, last by Shinkage 18 years ago

Shinkage

595

April 25, 2006 12:39 AM

Quote:Original post by Fruny
Unfortunately, NDAs tend to preclude such argumentation.

You misunderstand me. It's not about proving your CV, it's about proving your argument, which no amount of demonstration-by-authority-fiat will accomplish. Not that I'm saying he's wrong, he has valid points to be sure (as does the opposition), but don't accept them "because he's an authority."

MaulingMonkey

1,729

April 25, 2006 01:27 AM

Quote:Original post by Anonymous Poster
Jesus Christ...I am truly amazed with the things I see posted on this forum.

What, you mean a debate on a subject in which intelligent professionals can believe or support differing viewpoints, where they can discuss the logic behind those positions and ponder their stengths, weaknesses, and their effect? I'm amazed too, that such can exist on the internet, in a condensating world where people like you merely write off the opposing side as not being worth talking to.

Unlike you... me and those replying to this topic, we wish to engage in this discussion not because Mr Ericson has a large epeen, but rather to see what he has to bring to the table of discussion (which he has joined by his own volition). We wish to both teach and learn. Telling him what to do, to ignore us, is disrespectful to both us and him. He is more than capable of making that decision himself if he so chooses.

Boder

935

April 25, 2006 01:45 AM

The flames from the AP are burning my cheeks.

meh

375

April 25, 2006 02:18 AM

Quote:Original post by Palidine
To be honest it all really boils down to familliarity with the STL and somewhat of a religious issue. It's trivial to "fix" the STL for games(console or otherwise) w/r/t memory management/fragmentation if you know what you're doing. Even then though, there are a lot of people who just won't use the STL either due to not being familliar with it or because of something akin to whether or not an opening curly brace should be on a newline or not.

The bottom line is preference. If you like the STL and know it well and want to use it for console games it's trivial to "fix" it. If you just don't like the STL or aren't really familliar with it, then it's easy to write your own container. There are zero technical reasons that you cannot use it. It's just an OpenGL v. DirectX religious war.

-me

I believe this hits the crux of the matter pretty accurately.

Also Shinkage makes the very valid point that you don't have to use the entire library.

The AP should have the balls to state who he is before he goes ahead blathering about position.

MaulingMonkey

1,729

April 25, 2006 02:24 AM

Quote:Original post by Boder
The flames from the AP are burning my cheeks.

They're making me chuckle in the irony of the post decrying the lack of respect being by far the least respectful of the topic.

Christer Ericson

840

April 25, 2006 02:56 AM

Quote:Original post by Palidine
To be honest it all really boils down to familliarity with the STL and somewhat of a religious issue.

For you, perhaps it does and perhaps it is. For me, it is a pragmatic issue, not a religious one, based on 25+ years of programming experience of what works and what doesn't.

My answer to the OP stands: most console developers I know are vary of using STL (and, IMO, for good reasons). No amount of arguing from the rabid members of the OOP clan changes that.

I'm allergic to these kinds of threads so with that, I've said mine.

Christer Ericson
http://realtimecollisiondetection.net/blog/

meh

375

April 25, 2006 03:07 AM

Quote:Original post by Christer Ericson
Quote:Original post by Palidine
To be honest it all really boils down to familliarity with the STL and somewhat of a religious issue.

My answer to the OP stands: most console developers I know are vary of using STL (and, IMO, for good reasons). No amount of arguing from the rabid members of the OOP clan changes that.

I don't think anyone is fanatically supporting STL/Boost or OOP in this thread.

I guess the further point to ask is based on your own programming experience what are the problems with using STL that you have found?

The best reason I can think of is sucky compiler support for the language features they use.

IMHO the thread doesn't need to decend into a mindless flaming of viewpoints if we all remain rational and explore the issues. That to me, would be most healthy.

_the_phantom_

11,263

April 25, 2006 04:39 AM

Quote:Original post by Christer Ericson
My answer to the OP stands: most console developers I know are vary of using STL (and, IMO, for good reasons). No amount of arguing from the rabid members of the OOP clan changes that.

While that might be true up until now with the change in arch for the current generation (XB360 and PS3 when it appears) the chances are alot of the 'old rules' wont apply as they once did, as with PCs consoles are evolving and becoming more powerfull, as such the way things are currently done won't always apply... I mean, if they did we'd still be writing in assembly on the PC...

Palidine

1,315

April 25, 2006 12:13 PM

Quote:Original post by Christer Ericson
most console developers I know are vary of using STL

In my experience "most" isn't true; maybe half. =)

I'm a console programmer in a building full of console game programmers (about 200 of them working on current and nextgen). The debate over the STL is pretty much exactly like this thread and happens at the beginning of every single project. ~50% are pro, ~50% are con. The division line isn't across skill or experience boundaries. Got super-senior engineers on both sides. That's why I liken it to a religious OpenGL v. DirectX war.

I'm sure you have good reasons to avoid the STL. Maybe been burned by it on other projects. Maybe just don't like the way it works. Other people just as experienced have the opposite feeling; they <3 the STL and use it sucessfully all the time on AAA console titles.

At the end of the day it's certainly something to debate for any project but there is not right or wrong answer.

-me

d000hg

1,208

April 25, 2006 04:46 PM

Most people seem to view the STL as comprising a few container classes. This doesn't make STL particularly attractive to learn, what with the nasty error messages. If you start looking to find what it can do it becomes more and more useful - if, of course, your compiler has a good STL implementation. Considering that even VC++ 6.0 didn't, when Windows apps use STL a lot, it's perhaps a little worrying to wonder what the PS2 compiler might have!

Boost/STL in games?

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