🔒 Locked

Commies

Started by Eelco Nov 27, 2006 at 5:34 PM 247 replies 31.6k views

Original Post

Nov 27, 2006 at 5:34 PM

Soo.. in the same spirit as 'since bush got reelected i want to emigrate', here is 'the commies got elected and i want to emigrate'. Seriously. We had elections for parliament here last week. Now this country has always been pretty damned communistic: if i showed you the party programme of our liberal (liberal in the adam smith sense), youd probably think it was the communists. But no, that wasnt good enough. The damned communist party is closely tied with what best translates as 'labour' (the other brand of collectivists) for the second biggest party. With only annoying christian conservatives (not the republican kind, but still annoying) ahead of them. Sure, they call themselves 'socialists' since 'communism' got a bit of a bad rep, but really... Officially they dont admire mao and stalin anymore, but every now and then their chairman has to reprimand someone for openly showing their affection for the likes of them. A tad transparent given that its no secret they started as a Maoistic party funded by china, and were openly cozy with him long after it became common knowledge he was closely tied with hitler for biggest mass murderer in all of history. The russians who first got out with stories about the goelags were dismissed by them as facists. That kind of blind ideology. Really, living off the state as a student i feel i have some right to claim that a system where clueless people get to vote for the amount of money the state forks over to them just doesnt make any sense, even though it serves my short term interests aswell. Ive asked people who voted for them why they think they have anything other than ruin to bring when the history of the past century tells such a crystal clear story, but to no avail. As long as you dont have to compromise going on holidays twice a year i suppose anything goes. Anyway... got any ideas (besides a suicide bombing)? The US has nice aspects but on other fronts it sucks major donkey balls aswell. Ive heard good things about new zealand. Gonna try to do land an internship there i think.

Dreddnafious Maelstrom

Nov 27, 2006 at 5:43 PM

Quote:
Original post by Eelco
Soo.. in the same spirit as 'since bush got reelected i want to emigrate', here is 'the commies got elected and i want to emigrate'. Seriously.

We had elections for parliament here last week. Now this country has always been pretty damned communistic: if i showed you the party programme of our liberal (liberal in the adam smith sense), youd probably think it was the communists. But no, that wasnt good enough.

The damned communist party is closely tied with what best translates as 'labour' (the other brand of collectivists) for the second biggest party. With only annoying christian conservatives (not the republican kind, but still annoying) ahead of them. Sure, they call themselves 'socialists' since 'communism' got a bit of a bad rep, but really... Officially they dont admire mao and stalin anymore, but every now and then their chairman has to reprimand someone for openly showing their affection for the likes of them. A tad transparent given that its no secret they started as a Maoistic party funded by china, and were openly cozy with him long after it became common knowledge he was closely tied with hitler for biggest mass murderer in all of history. The russians who first got out with stories about the goelags were dismissed by them as facists. That kind of blind ideology.

Really, living off the state as a student i feel i have some right to claim that a system where clueless people get to vote for the amount of money the state forks over to them just doesnt make any sense, even though it serves my short term interests aswell. Ive asked people who voted for them why they think they have anything other than ruin to bring when the history of the past century tells such a crystal clear story, but to no avail. As long as you dont have to compromise going on holidays twice a year i suppose anything goes.

Anyway... got any ideas (besides a suicide bombing)? The US has nice aspects but on other fronts it sucks major donkey balls aswell. Ive heard good things about new zealand. Gonna try to do land an internship there i think.

Sorry to hear that man. I honestly am. Something to consider, generally collectivists are horrible at effecting any form of change without gunplay. If you don't forsee any gunplay in the future you may be surprised how little they accomplish along their party line.

If you ever find yourself taking the full plunge into anarcho-capitalism you're always welcome to come over here and help me right the ship in the US [smile]

mikeman

Nov 27, 2006 at 5:46 PM

Cool.

Viva la revolution! Commies FTW!

SticksandStones

Nov 27, 2006 at 6:02 PM

I fully support anyone who wishes to change their country of residence to avoid insane politicians.

What are you looking for in your new home? If you don't enjoy paying for health insurance that will argue with you over paying for something that saved your life*, don't come to the United States.

*I once had an allergic reaction to a shot. My heart rate slowed down to a dangerous level, and I was given a shot of epinephrin to, you know, save my life. The insurance company didn't want to pay for it. My doctor fought them for six months before they paid it.

Trapper Zoid

Nov 27, 2006 at 6:07 PM

New Zealand's a nice country, but their politics traditionally has a left wing inclination. Whether or not it's a good idea to move there depends on how anti-socialist you are [smile].

Eelco

Nov 27, 2006 at 6:12 PM

Quote:
Original post by Dreddnafious Maelstrom
Sorry to hear that man. I honestly am. Something to consider, generally collectivists are horrible at effecting any form of change without gunplay. If you don't forsee any gunplay in the future you may be surprised how little they accomplish along their party line.

well, luckily were just one seat shy of a fully fledged collectivistic coalition government, but they dont really need to do much for things to suck. a political lockdown with most of our laws dating from the 60-70ies is more victory for them than im comfortable with.

Quote:

If you ever find yourself taking the full plunge into anarcho-capitalism you're always welcome to come over here and help me right the ship in the US [smile]

i know about it. the thing is, i think natural laws is just as much bullshit as any sort of ethics.

are you aware of seastead.org? not a very shiny website, but the guy running it has some interesting ideas that i couldnt agree more with. especially regarding his ideas of provoking change. dont preach, but rather create an envirnoment where forced collectivism among other disagreeable things wont be able to get anywhere near the amount of traction they do in our current system. if ill ever obtain the financial freedom to do so id definitely like to join his cause. (or an alike one)

jjd

Nov 27, 2006 at 6:13 PM

Quote:

New Zealand's a nice country, but their politics traditionally has a left wing inclination. Whether or not it's a good idea to move there depends on how anti-socialist you are .

And the All Blacks kick arse!

Eelco

Nov 27, 2006 at 6:19 PM

Quote:
Original post by SticksandStones
I fully support anyone who wishes to change their country of residence to avoid insane politicians.

What are you looking for in your new home? If you don't enjoy paying for health insurance that will argue with you over paying for something that saved your life*, don't come to the United States.

*I once had an allergic reaction to a shot. My heart rate slowed down to a dangerous level, and I was given a shot of epinephrin to, you know, save my life. The insurance company didn't want to pay for it. My doctor fought them for six months before they paid it.

the problem here is that you got an insurance for something that was not worth going into the trouble of getting it insured.

i really dont get why people want to insure themselves for things they could easily pay out of their wallets (or should anyway), especially periodic costs like lenses. what exactly is the point of insurance? bothering you as much as possible? no. covering unexpected costs you otherwise couldnt. dont insure yourself for costs that arnt even worth your time haggling over.

Eelco

Nov 27, 2006 at 6:21 PM

Quote:
Original post by Trapper Zoid
New Zealand's a nice country, but their politics traditionally has a left wing inclination. Whether or not it's a good idea to move there depends on how anti-socialist you are [smile].

define left wing... or socialist for that matter. but no i do not expect paradise. should be a nice country for my internship anyway i think :).

SticksandStones

Nov 27, 2006 at 6:24 PM

Quote:
Original post by Eelco
Quote:
Original post by SticksandStones
I fully support anyone who wishes to change their country of residence to avoid insane politicians.

What are you looking for in your new home? If you don't enjoy paying for health insurance that will argue with you over paying for something that saved your life*, don't come to the United States.

*I once had an allergic reaction to a shot. My heart rate slowed down to a dangerous level, and I was given a shot of epinephrin to, you know, save my life. The insurance company didn't want to pay for it. My doctor fought them for six months before they paid it.

the problem here is that you got an insurance for something that was not worth going into the trouble of getting it insured.

i really dont get why people want to insure themselves for things they could easily pay out of their wallets (or should anyway), especially periodic costs like lenses. what exactly is the point of insurance? bothering you as much as possible? no. covering unexpected costs you otherwise couldnt. dont insure yourself for costs that arnt even worth your time haggling over.

Easily pay? The shots I reacted to, if I were uninsured, cost around $350 per shot. I had to get two per week, every week for several years. I want to know how much you make that you can pay that out of your wallet.

A simple physical is over $100. My glasses I think were around $200 - uninsured.

SticksandStones

Nov 27, 2006 at 6:25 PM

Quote:
Original post by Eelco
Quote:
Original post by Trapper Zoid
New Zealand's a nice country, but their politics traditionally has a left wing inclination. Whether or not it's a good idea to move there depends on how anti-socialist you are [smile].

define left wing... or socialist for that matter. but no i do not expect paradise. should be a nice country for my internship anyway i think :).

I agree, New Zealand would be a nice country to stay for a little while.

Trapper Zoid

Nov 27, 2006 at 6:33 PM

Quote:
Original post by Eelco
Quote:
Original post by Trapper Zoid
New Zealand's a nice country, but their politics traditionally has a left wing inclination. Whether or not it's a good idea to move there depends on how anti-socialist you are [smile].

define left wing... or socialist for that matter. but no i do not expect paradise. should be a nice country for my internship anyway i think :).

Well I think that their Labour Party (centre-left?) has been in power for three terms now under PM Helen Clark. But the feel I've got about New Zealand is that it always seems to be a fair bit more liberal and left than Australia (except maybe during the Gough Whitlam years); for example the first country to allow women to vote, introducing proportional voting weakening the main parties hold on parliament and forcing more deals between parties. I suppose it's just a "vibe" thing, since I've never spent long enough in New Zealand to get a good understanding of grass roots political understanding.

Wikipedia link for those interested in New Zealand politics: I'm scanning through it to learn a bit more about our sister country since I'm a bit rusty myself.

Oh, and re: paradise: if someone were to film a movie set in the Garden of Eden, they'd probably shoot it in New Zealand [smile]. You'd be surprised in the Lord of the Rings how much of the landscape wasn't special effects.

Dreddnafious Maelstrom

Nov 27, 2006 at 6:52 PM

Quote:
Original post by Eelco
i know about it. the thing is, i think natural laws is just as much bullshit as any sort of ethics.

are you aware of seastead.org? not a very shiny website, but the guy running it has some interesting ideas that i couldnt agree more with. especially regarding his ideas of provoking change. dont preach, but rather create an envirnoment where forced collectivism among other disagreeable things wont be able to get anywhere near the amount of traction they do in our current system. if ill ever obtain the financial freedom to do so id definitely like to join his cause. (or an alike one)

Natural Law and AC aren't the same things.

I went to seastead.org and read his breakdown of AC, and i concur generally. But AC is flexible enough to allow competing governmental service providers and still avoid the ratcheting effect.(IMHO)

I think the most likely entry point would be one of the west african countries.

Sierra Leone or Liberia are looking nearly ripe.

I haven't decided whether the best entry method is as an NGO, to slowly subvert the population; posed as a corporation(and local employer), that eventually finds itself fighting nationalization and takes the next natural step; or befriending a bordering nation and running a guerilla campaign, but natural resources are a huge stepping stone towards progress, and no man made island is going to have it other than geographical proximity, or underwater.

Paradigm Shifter

Nov 27, 2006 at 7:04 PM

Communism ain't that bad. At least they won the space race. Have the dutch got a space programme or do they just make the cakes for it?

Ceoddyn

Nov 27, 2006 at 8:25 PM

Quote:
Original post by Eelco
We had elections for parliament here last week. Now this country has always been pretty damned communistic: if i showed you the party programme of our liberal (liberal in the adam smith sense), youd probably think it was the communists. But no, that wasnt good enough.

I thought adam smith was the inventor of capitalism? How can he be at all related to communism?

Spoonbender

Nov 27, 2006 at 8:36 PM

Quote:
Original post by EelcoIve asked people who voted for them why they think they have anything other than ruin to bring when the history of the past century tells such a crystal clear story, but to no avail.

Uh, what does history tell? That Netherland is, on the whole, a rather wealthy and successful where a lot of people want to live? Don't know, I think I fail to see the problem.

The fact of the matter is that "communist" or not, in Europe the trend seems to be that the more "left-wing" a country is, the better it seems to be doing. Scandinavia and the Netherlands are pretty much always doing better than average in Europe economically, pretty much always top the charts in living standards and such. England, France, Germany and other more "middle-ground" countries are usually lagging behind.

So obviously these countries must be doing something right.
How exactly is it that the history of the past century "tells such a crystal clear story"?

History tells us a lot of things, but I wouldn't agree that it tells us a "crystal clear story" that left-wing politics will bring ruin to the country. They haven't in the past. As you said, the country has always been leaning left, so how do you explain that the country hasn't been brought to ruin yet?

Quote:

A tad transparent given that its no secret they started as a Maoistic party funded by china, and were openly cozy with him long after it became common knowledge he was closely tied with hitler for biggest mass murderer in all of history. The russians who first got out with stories about the goelags were dismissed by them as facists. That kind of blind ideology.

*Shrug* The same blind ideology that socialists all over the world were guilty of. The same blind ideology that capitalists were also guilty of (choosing only to believe bad things about communists/socialists, choosing to believe, despite evidence to the contrary, that capitalism solves all problems). At least they've tried to move on then, whether or not you suspect them of secretly having shrines to Mao in their basements. The simple fact that they no longer deny those things, that they no longer openly support Mao is a whole lot better than quite a lot of politicians across the world (and on both right and left)

Dreddnafious Maelstrom

Nov 27, 2006 at 8:46 PM

Quote:
Original post by Ceoddyn
Quote:
Original post by Eelco
We had elections for parliament here last week. Now this country has always been pretty damned communistic: if i showed you the party programme of our liberal (liberal in the adam smith sense), youd probably think it was the communists. But no, that wasnt good enough.

I thought adam smith was the inventor of capitalism? How can he be at all related to communism?

Quote:

Classical liberalism (also called laissez-faire liberalism[1]), may refer to libertarianism in its minarchist form[2] or the following, but not necessarily both: A doctrine stressing the importance of human rationality, individual property rights, natural rights, constitutional limitations of government, the protection of civil liberties, laissez-faire economic policy, and individual freedom from restraint as exemplified in the writings of Adam Smith, John Locke, Kenneth Clark, Ayn Rand, Voltaire, David Ricardo, Jeremy Bentham, John Stuart Mill.[3], Friedrich Hayek, and Milton Friedman[4]

capn_midnight

Nov 27, 2006 at 8:49 PM

Quote:
Original post by Paradigm Shifter
Communism ain't that bad. At least they won the space race. Have the dutch got a space programme or do they just make the cakes for it?

uh, they won it because they kidnapped a bunch of german scientists

Paradigm Shifter

Nov 27, 2006 at 9:04 PM

Quote:
Original post by capn_midnight
Quote:
Original post by Paradigm Shifter
Communism ain't that bad. At least they won the space race. Have the dutch got a space programme or do they just make the cakes for it?

uh, they won it because they kidnapped a bunch of german scientists

OK, the fascists won the space race then. Sort of. So it seems totalitarian governments are good for that sort of thing then. If you want to go to space, who you gonna call? Not NASA or ghostbusters, you call the pros, the Russians. Tetris wasn't bad either - although Bill Gates snaffled him I believe. I hear Kasparov was fairly good at chess as well.

Iron Chef Carnage

Nov 27, 2006 at 9:05 PM

So we need to start a Randian colony on the Moon. Get a big black van and start abducting Germans. The Randian society's good for one generation, at least, if you pick your citizens carefully.

Topic Locked

This topic has been locked by a moderator. New replies are not allowed.