Quote:Original post by Naurava kulkuri
Probably a bit that also. But as I stated already, Torvalds is not generally a pleasant person. He assumes one has done the homework and the use of proper language. Even in that case he may be a bit difficult to deal with. He is not a people person. What I've read from the interviews, he doesn't have that many personal friends or people he interacts with either. Only some very close ones.

Quote:I don't think your post was unfounded. I agree you in that the reply was harsher that needed to be. Occasionally I don't even know why he takes the time and replies to people if he doesn't like his time being wasted. Maybe it is he feels insulted and replies because of that.

I just wanted to give you an idea as to why he seem to be that impolite most of the time. But as commented already some few times, Linus Torvalds doesn't have nice (public) personality in general and he doesn't really care of it.

Ok, thanks for clearing that up for me. I guess I'm done with this thread now.

Quote:Original post by capn_midnight
Let's get one thing straight *right now*: professionalism really has nothing to do with being right or wrong, it's how you choose to communicate with people. Linus Torvolds is the very definition of the Unprofessional Programmer, the Basement Dwelling Tech Guy who is so often lampooned in the popular media.

Everyone can be nice the first time they are asked a stupid question. The difference lies in how one responds to the 1,000th time one is asked a stupid question.

Yeah, in my opinion rudeness is never professional. If you disagree with a colleague at your job you'd be expected to treat them with respect, for instance. And as you get more responsibility in your job, this gets more important. A burger-flipper in McDonalds can be surly but in a "real" job you could be reprimanded for being "abrasive".

d000hg, mikeman: thats exactly what I was trying to say, except I guess I said it in an... unprofessional way .

While Torvalds can be very rude, his posts are all technical and not personal attacks. Not to say I think it's good behavior, but there is one thing that can be said for this style: most people are quite ready to rose color things or simply deny bad news, being so outspoken / provocative at least can have the effect of bringing something out in the open.

EDIT: I'm not sure what professional means in the open source world. If being professional, amongst other things, means being able communicate effectively, then rudeness can be professional if that is an effective means of communication (and it sometimes definitely is).

From the things that Linus writes (and that I've read), I'd have to say that he's kind of an asshole. And then there's this:

Quote:by Linus Torvalds
C++ leads to really really bad design choices. You invariably start using
the "nice" library features of the language like STL and Boost and other
total and utter crap, that may "help" you program, but causes:

...

- inefficient abstracted programming models where two years down the road
you notice that some abstraction wasn't very efficient, but now all
your code depends on all the nice object models around it, and you
cannot fix it without rewriting your app.

Which makes me think that Linus really doesn't comprehend what object oriented programming and abstraction are all about. When those two years down the come along, all you rewrite is your class/abstraction internals: the rest of your application should remain the same as it uses the same interface.

Now, I'll admit that he has good points when he talks about forwards-compatibility. The amount of manpower it would take to (properly) rewrite the kernel to rename reserved C++ keywords is certainly mind-boggling. But his general attitude is really shameful.

Hmm. I guess he must be a good coder. But he sure sounds ignorant about C++ and particularly the STL. That sounds like the kind of thing dumb 15-year-olds post on this forum sometimes... "C++ is too slow because of all the objects", "You have to write your own LinkedList because STL is slow", etc.

Quote:Original post by CrimsonSun
From the things that Linus writes (and that I've read), I'd have to say that he's kind of an asshole. And then there's this:

Quote:by Linus Torvalds
C++ leads to really really bad design choices. You invariably start using
the "nice" library features of the language like STL and Boost and other
total and utter crap, that may "help" you program, but causes:

...

- inefficient abstracted programming models where two years down the road
you notice that some abstraction wasn't very efficient, but now all
your code depends on all the nice object models around it, and you
cannot fix it without rewriting your app.

Which makes me think that Linus really doesn't comprehend what object oriented programming and abstraction are all about. When those two years down the come along, all you rewrite is your class/abstraction internals: the rest of your application should remain the same as it uses the same interface.

Now, I'll admit that he has good points when he talks about forwards-compatibility. The amount of manpower it would take to (properly) rewrite the kernel to rename reserved C++ keywords is certainly mind-boggling. But his general attitude is really shameful.

I honestly believe that many people of his generation of software developers have at least some amount of ego. While I wouldn't exactly call his comments professional, as previously mentioned, it's not like he was being asked a professional question in a professional forum. He was insulted rudely on a public mailing list and responded accordingly. Just because he has some notoriety, he is suppose to act professional at all times? He's human.

Also, I somewhat disagree with Emmanuel Deloget, CrimsonSun, and a few others on his comments about C++. Now, I'm not going to say that I see him as a software developing god, but he does have some reasoning on his choices and his background. Perhaps he's wrong, but perhaps he has an insight that many of us lack.

There's nothing unprofessional about Linus' behavior. Someone with no history came onto the public mailing list of the software he wrote and began criticizing his implementation decisions, then later called him a dinosaur. It's not a professional forum, and he's not responding to a professional inquiry. He's verbally excoriating a self-important prick.

*shrug*

"Professionalism" is the cover of the overly sensitive. I get into a flame fest with someone on an off-topic thread on GameDev and he tells me I'm "unprofessional"? Loser moron. "Professional" implies work for pay or expertise sufficient to teach apprentices. If neither of those two conditions apply, the adjective is invalid. 9 times out of 10, the word people are looking for is "polite".

Quote:Original post by Nytegard
I honestly believe that many people of his generation of software developers have at least some amount of ego

Ego and reputation are the twin currencies of open source. Think about it. You spend a lot of time and apply your skill and effort to write a useful piece of software and then give it away for free. Further, you make the source code available so people can see how you wrote it - whether you're a good developer or not, whether you can spell (comments) or not, etc. What do you get in return?

No, it's not turning your users into co-developers. That's a shared benefit, so it's not a remuneration for your efforts. Reputation, however, is. Becoming known as "the author of X, a widely-used Y" makes you an authority and can lead to job offers and consulting gigs, or investment backing for your future activities. It also gives you credibility within the nerd community; it makes your opinion matter.

Open source is a gift culture, where your status - your reputation - is determined by the quantity and quality of what you give away. While I think ESR is a smug git, you should read his collection of essays published as The Cathedral and the Bazaar (The Cathedral and the Bazaar, Homesteading the Noosphere, The Magic Cauldron...). It'll give you insight into how and why Open Source works.