Hello there, Note before reading: MBO = Middle Profession Education HBO = Higher Profession Education I am Marlon, I am 19 years old and am currently having a hard time choosing a school for my future. I am currently a student at the Da Vinci College, that is an MBO in Gorinchem. Over 3 and a half years I want to start with my HBO. I have been thinking about University, and I would like that, but not all University's accept MBO students, most only want students with a bachelor degree in their pocket. So then I kept thinking, and at the moment I have the following schools in my mind. NHTV University of Utrecht These are both schools in the Netherlands. Like I already said, my chance on the University isn't so big, because I don't have a bachelor degree, and the University of Utrecht only offers a master Game Programming education. I may be doing this later, but the chance I get there at the moment is fairly small. These are 2 schools, but I want more, That's why I made this topic! Could you guys please help me search for the best / highest quality schools that offer a Game Programming education that lie in or near the Netherlands. When saying near I am talking about Great Britain, France, Belgium, Germany, Luxembourg, and anything else that lies very near the Netherlands. Why close to the Netherlands? This is because I want to stay near my family, I want to be able to see them every now and then. This also counts for my friends. I hope you guys understand this. If you know what NHTV and the University of Utrecht ask from students before they can follow an education at their college/university, could you please tell me? Only tell me if you are sure about it and if you know all the things they ask from new students. So you have probably been a student there, or you are a studen there currently, or you have been following that school for quite a while. NOTE: I prefer college's that offer an education with a focus on Game Programming, so not general programming. If you do know a school that offers an education which focusses on programming that can get me ready for a job in Game Design, you may post it here too. Please make sure that it offers a real high quality programming education, and that it is near the Netherlands. A little question: When you finish a programming education, you don't know a lot about game programming. Will you have to train yourself yourself in game programming before getting a job, or will they let you learn it while there. Or better: Will you learn that at your school too? I hope I can get some answers here, because at others site's I didn't get any real answers. Thanks a lot in advance for your replies! Marlon. EDIT1: Because I wasn't getting any replies, I joined the GameDev.net IRC Chat to talk about this question. They cleared up my mind, and I am very thankful for that. I now know that real programming educations don't exist. The ones that pretend to be programming educations are just rip-offs. They told me it would be best to either learn programming all by myself or to follow a Computer Science education and program in my own time. I will be getting the basics and the understandings at the Computer Science education, but it will be good to program in my own time too. This means I have a new target now, not programming schools, not game programming schools, but schools that offer a high quality Computer Science education in the area of the Netherlands; Netherland, Great Britain, France, Belgium, Germany, Luxembourg. Most people say there are enough schools that offer high quality Computer Science educations in the Netherlands though. That's why I would prefer a school in the Netherlands, but if you know a real high quality one near Holland you may tell me too. Schools / educations I still have to check: 1. Technische Informatica at the Hogeschool Utrecht. Schools / educations which I'm going to apply to: None yet Thanks for the help! [Edited by - Marly on October 28, 2007 4:54:21 PM]

Quote:
When you finish a programming education, you don't know a lot about game programming.

Programming is programming.

Sure, a computer science education doesn't specifically teach you "game programming" (or, hardly, "programming" in general), but as "game progamming" is an application domain, it's pretty easy to pick up yourself. If you're expecting to have your college or university teach you everything you need to know, and not bother studying outside of that, on your own, you aren't going to be very successful. The notion that "game programming" is a somehow special is a fallacy.

Quote:
Will you have to train yourself yourself in game programming before getting a job, or will they let you learn it while there. Or better: Will you learn that at your school too?

You learn what you allow yourself to learn. If you want to make the best of your education, you will need to spend some time on your own studying things outside of what your classes require you to. Consider for the moment what would happen if your previous assertion, that "game programming" and "generic programming" are fundamentally different, were true.

What would happen is you would be patently unemployable, since game programming, being a type of programming, is a specialization relative to generic (fundamental) programming. In other words, you wouldn't know the basics -- unless you studied them yourself. Fortunately for you, that assertion is incorrect.

Whether or not you choose to attend a "game school" is your problem and your decision. However, the sooner you disabuse yourself of the notion that "game programming" and "generic programming" are different things, the better.

Original post by Marly

Quote:
NHTV
University of Utrecht

These are both schools in the Netherlands. Like I already said, my chance on the University isn't so big, because I don't have a bachelor degree, and the University of Utrecht only offers a master Game Programming education. I may be doing this later, but the chance I get there at the moment is fairly small.

These are 2 schools, but I want more, That's why I made this topic! Could you guys please help me search for the best / highest quality schools that offer a Game Programming education that lie in or near the Netherlands. When saying near I am talking about Great Britain, France, Belgium, Germany, Luxembourg, and anything else that lies very near the Netherlands.

I don't have much knowledge or experience with both of these two schools (I got none, to be honest). But the first thing I would like to ask you, why would want to jump from a MBO eduction directly to a master-degree eduction?
You will just make it yourself more difficult then it is really worth it. On the same hand lies the problem, that in the Netherlands as of now, people with a bachlor-degree are far more desired in the ICT-sector.

I suggest you start with a bachlor-degree. If you got one, you can then choose to upgrade it to master (will take 2 additional years).
Here I can help you with a school. It is the Hogeschool Arnhem en Nijmegen (HAN University).
I suggest to look for the Information Communication Academy (ICA).

This education is quite broad, but you can choose to specialize yourself in many areas, amongst them (Game) Design and Programming.

As for the quality of the school/education, it is relatively high compared to what Europe has to offer. Atleast that is what many have told me so far (I still study there until january, albeit a different eduction).

Quote:
A little question: When you finish a programming education, you don't know a lot about game programming. Will you have to train yourself yourself in game programming before getting a job, or will they let you learn it while there. Or better: Will you learn that at your school too?

By hobbying alot you will definitly help yourself in long terms. Just try alot, I could say here.
When you got an idea, try it out, you don't even need the eduction to start with that. By trying, your knowledge will extend with itself over the years.

Don't stick with just one programming language like it is your own child, try out many, because in the end it is your future employer who determines what language you are going to use.

Once you understand the basic principles about programming, you will see that any programming languages is nothing more then a tool to produce machine instructions (please don't take this too literal...).

I hope this helped you.

Regards,
Xeile

Quote:Original post by jpetrie

Quote:
When you finish a programming education, you don't know a lot about game programming.

Programming is programming.

Sure, a computer science education doesn't specifically teach you "game programming" (or, hardly, "programming" in general), but as "game progamming" is an application domain, it's pretty easy to pick up yourself. If you're expecting to have your college or university teach you everything you need to know, and not bother studying outside of that, on your own, you aren't going to be very successful. The notion that "game programming" is a somehow special is a fallacy.

Quote:
Will you have to train yourself yourself in game programming before getting a job, or will they let you learn it while there. Or better: Will you learn that at your school too?

You learn what you allow yourself to learn. If you want to make the best of your education, you will need to spend some time on your own studying things outside of what your classes require you to. Consider for the moment what would happen if your previous assertion, that "game programming" and "generic programming" are fundamentally different, were true.

What would happen is you would be patently unemployable, since game programming, being a type of programming, is a specialization relative to generic (fundamental) programming. In other words, you wouldn't know the basics -- unless you studied them yourself. Fortunately for you, that assertion is incorrect.

Whether or not you choose to attend a "game school" is your problem and your decision. However, the sooner you disabuse yourself of the notion that "game programming" and "generic programming" are different things, the better.

I have been thinking about what you said, and I came to the conclusion that you are right. C++ is one language, and game programming is just something you do with the language, so it is not different from C++ programming itself. I was only thinking this because I saw engine making on the Game Institute, for example, for which you must have had some training. But like you say, the basics are already learnt while game programming.

If you think I am not learning anything for myself, you are wrong. I am spending 2 hours a day at least on programming, in private time. I think that's not nothing.

I am still searching for college's that offer game programming, but also for college's that offer normal programming. I am not looking for college's that give me computer science or anything alike, this is not because I don't like computers! This is because I want to focus myself on programming. I like computers, but I don't want to make my job out of the computer itself, I want to make my job out of programming. If I have a wrong attitude here, please tell me so. If not; Could you please help me find one?

I'm searching for schools that offer a specialised Game Programming education and schools that offer an education that focusses on programming (it needs to offer at least C++) in or near the Netherlands. When saying near I am talking about Great Britain, France, Belgium, Germany, Luxembourg, and anything else that lies very near the Netherlands.

Thanks in advance!

Marlon.

Quote:
I am not looking for college's that give me computer science or anything alike,

Computer science provides the groundwork for what you do as a programmer. It is a fairly important "thing" to study. "Programming degrees" are one of two things:

a) junk
b) computer science degrees with a poor name

You probably just lack a proper understanding of what, exactly, computer science is. Programming itself is, beyond the beginning stages, a relatively mechanical task. Learning new languages gets easier every time, and good programming know many. Writing code is a simple, learnable skill. Writing code well, for any application domain, involves some deeper understanding of some theoretical concepts -- exactly the concepts a computer science education typically focuses on.

Not that you won't ever pick up these concepts on your own, but still. You might be missing something here.

Quote:Original post by jpetrie

Quote:
I am not looking for college's that give me computer science or anything alike,

Computer science provides the groundwork for what you do as a programmer. It is a fairly important "thing" to study. "Programming degrees" are one of two things:

a) junk
b) computer science degrees with a poor name

You probably just lack a proper understanding of what, exactly, computer science is. Programming itself is, beyond the beginning stages, a relatively mechanical task. Learning new languages gets easier every time, and good programming know many. Writing code is a simple, learnable skill. Writing code well, for any application domain, involves some deeper understanding of some theoretical concepts -- exactly the concepts a computer science education typically focuses on.

Not that you won't ever pick up these concepts on your own, but still. You might be missing something here.

I agree with jpetrie 100%.

You could write a simple driver, without ever having to think about or use Object Oriënted programming. But when you try to make MMO like World of Warcraft, OO programming is an absolute requirement to make it even realisic (just an example, again don't take my words to literal).

Computer Science just supplies you with so much knowledge, some of it you'll never use anymore after being graduated, but most of it you require in your weekly routine (working wise), if not daily being a programming. It is not just programming you learn there, but also how to plan ahead, how to think practical or analythical.

Beside all this, the most important skill you will learn in almost any education for today, how to work in teams/group (a skill which is far too much underrated, imo).

Thanks for your replies. I agree with jpetrie, I am a beginner. I have tried to post it in the beginner section, but no one has replied to it, so then I tried it here. I hope you're not angry with me because I'm a beginner.

I indeed don't understand what computer science is! What I do know is that I'm following an informatice education at the MBO at the moment, and that I don't like all of it, or rather not a lot of it. The thing I enjoy most of it is programming, but we don't get that a lot. I was hoping to be doing more programming after this, if not only. I don't want to go through the same education again! I am learning all the basics here, from basics networking til basic assembling.

I hope you understand why I want to follow an education that gives only programming. If you still want to convince me to do computer science; please tell me what it is all about. Else, please help me find a school for general programming / game programming.

Thanks!

Marlon.

Ps. I'm voting an extremely helpful and/or friendly on both of you. I'm voting an extremely helpful and/or friendly on yaustar too, because he has been so helpful to me.

What is called "Computer science" in English, is what we call "Informatica" in The Netherlands.

I am currently studying computer science at the University of Utrecht. So far it looks like a very good education, but I've only started in september of this year. If you want to know what we learn here, take a look at this page: http://www.cs.uu.nl/education/ and fill in: Curriculum - eerste jaar - informatica - 2007/2008

I myself have had to make the same decision, and was also considering NHTV and University of Utrecht. I chose the latter because it offers greater challenge (University (Wetenschappelijk onderwijs) versus College (Hogeschool /HBO), and because it is a more general (not specifically game-oriented) education. It also offers a masters degree in Game Design.

UU was the right choice for me, but I'm not sure about you. I'm sure it is not possible to do a masters course with a MBO diploma. Even if it where possible, it would be foolish. You might be able to start the Informatica bachelor (Although I think you need an HBO or VWO diploma), but I must warn you that it is both difficult and NOT "just about programming". In the first semester we have gotten more math than I have in all my highschool (VWO) education.

NHTV seems to be much more about actual game programming than about theory. Its focus lies on team based game development, so that is what you will be doing most.

I applied at the NHTV (and was admitted, but then changed my mind and went to UU). The admission procedure consists of a self assesment test, a programming assignment (fix some code in blitzBasic (don't worry, they don't use blitz for the education)), and an interview.

Good luck!

I can highly recommend the Hogeschool voor Amsterdam. Take the course Technische Informatica, and then you can opt to major in Game Technology and/or take a Game Design major. I'm doing both. And hey, I even landed at a game company for my internship ;)