Can you lead an amateur/hobby/independent game as JUST the designer & PM?

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45 comments, last by d000hg 16 years, 2 months ago
Quote:Original post by d000hg
What you describe seems to be any online team though, whether or not the lead is a developer or not?


Pretty much, yes. Personally, I think such a thing could possibly succeed only if the project leader was a programmer himself, and would do the majority of work in general. But let's put that aside for now.

First things first, you have to consider is the people you need to work on your project. Even if we assume that you have a great idea and are the paragon of leadership, charisma and teamplay, and generally as perfect as a human being can possibly be in that role - the other people most certainly won't be. They won't be professionals, they'll be students or hobbyists, of which the first will have little and less flexible time, and the second might have plenty, but tend to be highly individualistic and unreliable.

Non-professional team members won't care much for the "team and project management" as a job itself. They're not your employees. They will expect to do things whenever they want (when they feel inspired, or don't have to go out and get drunk, or don't want to do something of their own), and often the way they want as well. They won't take obligations, deadlines, responsibilities, and things like that.

Secondly - you say you have a game design. But then again, I have a game design too. And so has any person who ever even considered the subject of designing games, and that is a lot of people. But I can program my idea. Why exactly would I want to work as a volunteer on your project, instead of doing the same with my own ideas? What is it that I need you for, seeing that I'm not short on designs and ideas myself, and completely uninterested in any kind of "management"?

I'm only using myself as an example, of course, but most people will ask themselves the same. If you don't intend to contribute to the project with something tangible, a product of some sort, I wouldn't rate the chances highly.
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Quote:Original post by Talin
Secondly - you say you have a game design. But then again, I have a game design too. And so has any person who ever even considered the subject of designing games, and that is a lot of people. But I can program my idea. Why exactly would I want to work as a volunteer on your project, instead of doing the same with my own ideas?
I'd claim you probably don't have a game design. You might have some ideas about "this would be cool" but a design is a technical document which a great deal of time and effort goes into. For you to work on your own project you may do ok without a formal design since you can hold the idea in your head, but for a team project it's essential. Are you willing to put the time in to write pages and pages describing the game's every facet?

Quote:Original post by Kylotan
I just really can't imagine ever wanting to join such a team. If someone wants to 'manage' me, I expect them to pay for the privilege. If I wanted to contribute to something for free, I'd expect to do so on an ad-hoc basis to a project that someone else has already started, not to be a volunteer employee with obligations.
What about all these hobby projects we see that are doing quite well? They tend to have someone in charge, rather than employing an open-source "do what you like" philosophy.
Sure, all programmers can work on their own project. But if you work with other people the game can progress faster and might actually get finished... so I thought perhaps some coders would prefer to work on a project they didn't design because they want to have a completed project under their belt?
Quote:Original post by d000hg
For you to work on your own project you may do ok without a formal design since you can hold the idea in your head, but for a team project it's essential.


Helpful, yes. Important, yes. Essential? Hardly.

It's perfectly possible to make a decent game (team or no team) without one, with just an informal understanding of idea and features evolving over time. Of course, it depends on the depth and complexity of the game (but if you're starting this kind of project, I really hope you do not have a full blown 3D MMO project in mind).

It is however absolutely impossible to do anything without a programmer, and it's impossible to get far without any graphics and art whatsoever. These areas of development are essential. GDD is just extremely valuable and helpful, but not indispensible.

Quote:Original post by d000hgWhat about all these hobby projects we see that are doing quite well?


How many of them were started and managed successfully by people with an idea (alright, design) and management oriented skills?

And how many were started by one or two guys with appropriate (required) skills to actually complete the project? And usually with those few guys doing absolutely everything until the project kicks off and shows its potential. At which point other people might start volunteering to help.

Without extensive research, I'd wager a vast majority of successful projects falls into the second category.
Good programmers will need little motivation to finish what they work on and they will most definitely need no management if the team is small. In my experience having a completed game under your belt is only important if that project has been through a serious retail release. I don't think having a completed game would weigh any heavier than having a completed concept implemented and working to me. In fact it would be easier for me to understand what the programmer has done if he is the only contributor. In my experience, on line teams are fairly worthless experience when evaluated, only professional experience counts. Maybe I'm a bit harsh though :)
I think you limit your chances for success by doing this. You do make it harder (though not impossible) to find a team but, more importantly, I think anyone who has done independent game development knows that a successful project needs a "driving force".

A small subset of the team (usually one, maybe two) people invariably "take the reins" on a project. They're the people who do whatever is necessary to complete the game by exercising the limits of their own talents (and time) and filling in the gaps in whatever way they can.

The motivation for performing such a monumental task is a devotion to their game and the knowledge that it's getting implemented to (or very close to) their vision. By limiting yourself to the (by no means trivial) "leadership" role, you are essentially saying that you're NOT going to be the "driving force", while at the same time limiting the motivation for someone else to pick it up.

For that reason I think you'd be in trouble from the start.
Quote:Original post by Talin
Helpful, yes. Important, yes. Essential? Hardly.
That goes against just about every principle of good software engineering... but I take your point, you can get working software without a proper design, if you're lucky.
Quote:Original post by Talin
And how many were started by one or two guys with appropriate (required) skills to actually complete the project? And usually with those few guys doing absolutely everything until the project kicks off and shows its potential. At which point other people might start volunteering to help.
I agree with you. The point of this thread is to see if that's the ONLY way to get a non-paid team together. It seems like the answer is yes... in which case I'll have to shelve my ideas because even a prototype is a lot of work.

Quote:Original post by d000hg
Quote:Original post by Talin
Helpful, yes. Important, yes. Essential? Hardly.
That goes against just about every principle of good software engineering... but I take your point, you can get working software without a proper design, if you're lucky.


'Software engineering' is just one approach to producing software. You could probably come up with a 'Novel engineering' approach to producing stories, if writers wouldn't recoil in horror at the idea. I don't know if there is any evidence at all that formal design is more effective than informal design, and there's certainly no agreement on quite what form that formality should take, given the proliferation of methodologies, languages, and techniques.

Personally I have written many pieces of software that never had a formal design, and they all work. I have also written to formal designs, and the benefit there was not in that the quality of the software was improved, but that there was a checklist to prove that the work was done. The essence of the matter though is that a good programmer can create working software organically.

Quote:Original post by d000hg
The point of this thread is to see if that's the ONLY way to get a non-paid team together. It seems like the answer is yes... in which case I'll have to shelve my ideas because even a prototype is a lot of work.


In theory, I suppose you might find some people who are inspired to work upon a project, and who are willing to commit to working on someone else's idea, starting from nothing. But I don't think I ever met such a person in 7 years on this site. This is where another fallacy comes in - programmers aren't really engineers, despite what management want. They're craftsmen. They're creative. They like making things, not following instructions, pulling a lever, and watching a program pop out. You will have to find some way of convincing them that helping with your idea is somehow more fulfilling than working on their own, while also convincing them that your 'management' is not going to restrict them in this. It's a lot to ask.

(EDIT - had misquoted someone, sorry!)

[Edited by - Kylotan on February 15, 2008 4:59:45 AM]
D Zero wrote:
>Let me be a little more detailed.
>* I would act as project manager, technical manager (in collaboration with the lead programmer and lead artist) and lead designer (actually writing the design doc).
>*I would not be expecting people to just be code monkeys. I'd specifically like people who do want to have creative input, so we can discuss lots of ideas.
>*As far as it being "my game", I'm thinking I'd initially present a page or two "selling" the idea. ...

We understood your thinking the first time. What makes you think we didn't understand? Is it because you refuse to accept what we've told you in response? Because all you're doing is reiterating what you've already said, ignoring what we've told you already.

>I'd claim you probably don't have a game design. You might have some ideas about "this would be cool" but a design is a technical document which a great deal of time and effort goes into. For you to work on your own project you may do ok without a formal design since you can hold the idea in your head, but for a team project it's essential. Are you willing to put the time in to write pages and pages describing the game's every facet?

You're trying to convince us that GDDs are necessary? We aren't the ones you have to convince. We're telling you that the people you have to convince are not likely to appreciate what you have to offer, until and unless they trust you.

>What about all these hobby projects we see that are doing quite well? They tend to have someone in charge, rather than employing an open-source "do what you like" philosophy.

Please back that up with hard facts. Name the hobby projects. Name one. And how the project came to include its project manager in the first place. That could be very instructive for you. And BTW, you're preaching to the choir again.

>I thought perhaps some coders would prefer to work on a project they didn't design because they want to have a completed project under their belt?

Perhaps. So all you have to do is (1) find them, and (2) get their trust, then you can (3) do this thing you want to do.

>The point of this thread is to see if that's the ONLY way to get a non-paid team together. It seems like the answer is yes...

No, the answer isn't yes. The answer is "it varies." You seem very resistant to listening - and that is going to be a problem for you. Because listening is one of the most important things game designers and project managers do.

-- Tom Sloper -- sloperama.com

Quote:Original post by d000hg
I'll have to shelve my ideas because even a prototype is a lot of work.

Well that's a depressing attitude. Sure, it's alot of work... but if you're not willing to put alot of work into your project then how do you expect anybody else to?

Check out my new game Smash and Dash at:

http://www.smashanddashgame.com/

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