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Why the hell can't heroes kill?

Started by Alpha_ProgDes Jul 20, 2008 at 11:09 PM 57 replies 7k views

Original Post

Jul 20, 2008 at 11:09 PM

Is there such a reason as to why any hero must not kill? It's 2008!! I want my hero to be frustrated and toss an evil son-of-a-bitch off a balcony. Go for revenge because a loved one gets killed. Or just have a bad day and chuck a batarang into someone's esophagus and say, "Oops, didn't think I threw it that hard." The cliche of the good must hold high moral standards and is well... unrealistic. Yes the good guy has to be "good" but not morally perfect and/or unambigious. He or she must be able and be allowed to cross that line. An extreme action should be met with an extreme consequence. Villain A blows up building full of people. Well Hero A should be disgusted and torch his ass. And Hero A should be satisfied and pleased with it!

Jarrod1937

Jul 20, 2008 at 11:17 PM

I'm guessing you've never heard of an anti-hero? While not always the case, anti-heroes are usually heroes who believe the end justify the means, which usually is killing.

Trapper Zoid

Jul 20, 2008 at 11:19 PM

Umm, are we discussing video games here? Where the typical approach for solving a dispute is "whoop his ass"? Where in a typical RPG the heroes wipe out at least 97% of the population of the world, based on a comparison of the number of NPC villagers versus the hero party's kill count?

Kaze

Jul 20, 2008 at 11:20 PM

Quote:
Original post by Alpha_ProgDes
Is there such a reason as to why any hero must not kill? It's 2008!! I want my hero to be frustrated and toss an evil son-of-a-bitch off a balcony. Go for revenge because a loved one gets killed.

EDIT:
Light from Death Note would also fit the bill pretty good

EDIT2:
Though their are plenty of anti-heroes in various series basically leouch from code geass and light from death note take it so far they would probably be villains if they got less screen time.

[Edited by - Kaze on July 20, 2008 11:20:27 PM]

Oluseyi

Jul 20, 2008 at 11:25 PM

Punisher.

nobodynews

Jul 20, 2008 at 11:38 PM

Well, there are multiple definitions of hero and as I don't know which definition you're thinking of the answer could be a range of answers from "there are heroes who are like that" to "a hero who acts like that isn't really a hero at all, by definition".

I mean, do you consider the characters Hartigan or Marv from Sin City heroes? Why or why not? If not, what makes them different from the heroes you have in mind?

edit: And yes, The Punisher as well. Hell, even Batman effectively kills Liam Neeson's character in Batman Begins. "I won't kill you, but that doesn't mean I have to save you"? Yeah, you keep telling yourself that wasn't murder Bruce.

Alpha_ProgDes

Jul 20, 2008 at 11:41 PM

Sorry. I was thinking more along the lines of heroes portrayed in movies as of late. Hancock and The Dark Knight teased me to the point that now I want violent heroes, super or not.

But yes, Punisher and Sin City are good examples [smile]

Alpha_ProgDes

Jul 20, 2008 at 11:43 PM

Original post by Kaze
Quote:
Original post by Alpha_ProgDes
Is there such a reason as to why any hero must not kill? It's 2008!! I want my hero to be frustrated and toss an evil son-of-a-bitch off a balcony. Go for revenge because a loved one gets killed.

What anime is that from?

Oluseyi

Jul 20, 2008 at 11:50 PM

Quote:
Original post by Alpha_ProgDes
What anime is that from?

Androgynous Male School Warrior Go!

That you considered that title for a second tells you about half of everything that's wrong with anime. [smile]

Benjamin Heath

Jul 20, 2008 at 11:50 PM

Are you mad because Batman didn't let the Joker fall, even though he actually wanted to die anyway?

Me, too. [evil] But still, he was seen as a cop-killer by the end anyway. That the perception did not match the reality speaks well of Bruce Wayne's true character and gives potential for redemption. And stuff. :P

But yeah, you're not exactly short on anti-heroes anywhere.

Alpha_ProgDes

Jul 21, 2008 at 12:07 AM

Quote:
Original post by Benjamin Heath
Are you mad because Batman didn't let the Joker fall, even though he actually wanted to die anyway?

Not mad, but disappointed.

Quote:
Me, too. [evil] But still, he was seen as a cop-killer by the end anyway. That the perception did not match the reality speaks well of Bruce Wayne's true character and gives potential for redemption. And stuff. :P

Well I think it's not the character so much as Batman knowing that the Joker wanted Batman to kill him and let him be killed. So Batman wasn't going to give the Joker what he wanted. If Batman didn't figure that out though, Joker would be dead for sure.

Quote:
But yeah, you're not exactly short on anti-heroes anywhere.

When you consider everything, then yeah. But since I was focusing on heroes shown in movies... I think the concept/implementation is a bit lacking.

Alpha_ProgDes

Jul 21, 2008 at 12:08 AM

Quote:
Original post by Oluseyi
Quote:
Original post by Alpha_ProgDes
What anime is that from?

Androgynous Male School Warrior Go!

[lol]

Quote:
That you considered that title for a second tells you about half of everything that's wrong with anime. [smile]

[razz]...[lol]

cowsarenotevil

Jul 21, 2008 at 12:20 AM

Wolverine, for instance seems to kill a lot of people in most of the movies he's in (at least as far as I remember), but to be honest I don't think Batman would be Batman if he killed people.

Tha_HoodRat

Jul 21, 2008 at 12:24 AM

Thats why Ozymandias is my favourite hero. Followed closely by batman. The Tower of Babel series was kick ass. Batman has contigency plans to take out any super hero including superman , and as a results gets tossed out of JLA. Talk about keeping your enemies close and your friends closer.

Oluseyi

Jul 21, 2008 at 12:27 AM

Quote:
Original post by cowsarenotevil
Wolverine, for instance seems to kill a lot of people in most of the movies he's in (at least as far as I remember), but to be honest I don't think Batman would be Batman if he killed people.

In his original adventures, Batman carried a gun. People often forget this. In certain continuities, Batman is willing to let people die or even kill them himself - he kills Dick Grayson in The Dark Knight Strikes Again.

Batman is a malleable concept, which is how he survived the camp years relatively unscathed.

Wolverine, on the other hand, has always killed people, even in the comic books. He is, after all, a living weapon.

NLDEV

Jul 21, 2008 at 12:31 AM

Most of the heroes that I can think of cut people down left and right.

cowsarenotevil

Jul 21, 2008 at 12:35 AM

Quote:
Original post by Oluseyi
Quote:
Original post by cowsarenotevil
Wolverine, for instance seems to kill a lot of people in most of the movies he's in (at least as far as I remember), but to be honest I don't think Batman would be Batman if he killed people.

In his original adventures, Batman carried a gun. People often forget this. In certain continuities, Batman is willing to let people die or even kill them himself - he kills Dick Grayson in The Dark Knight Strikes Again.

Batman is a malleable concept, which is how he survived the camp years relatively unscathed.

Yes, I know this. However, according to Wikipedia, it looks like at most four years of Batman's career involved Batman killing people, as opposed to more than 60 in which he did not. I think Batman's killing people is as much a part of his identity as his parents' murder. Sure, one could change either of those things, but at that point I would definitely feel like it wasn't really Batman anymore.

d000hg

Jul 21, 2008 at 2:12 AM

Loads of heroes kill people. Bond, Rambo, Any Arnie film...

d000hg

Jul 21, 2008 at 2:16 AM

Quote:
Original post by Alpha_ProgDes
Villain A blows up building full of people. Well Hero A should be disgusted and torch his ass. And Hero A should be satisfied and pleased with it!

He should be pleased he killed someone? I don't think anyone should be pleased about killing. They might feel it was necessary, but people who enjoy killing aren't the kind who should be in a position to have that kind of responsibility.

kanzler

Jul 21, 2008 at 2:40 AM

Quote:
Original post by Alpha_ProgDes
Is there such a reason as to why any hero must not kill?

I take it you never saw any of the Death Wish movies?

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