I think that there is a common thread to be found throughout all of this; every single person who posted here has their own brilliant idea. You have an idea, stimarco has an idea, kekko has an idea, drakostar, Tom Sloper, Daaark, and so on. But what does this mean? If everyone has their own idea, what can you do?
What you can do, is present your idea in such a way that it seems more logical, more detailed, more finished, than their own. But the idea has to be more than just a single element, more than just one factor among many, it has to be a complete and logical product that you can set before them. If you can say "oh, and by the way, check out that Design Document/Website/Art Gallery/Demo/Prototype/Synopsis that I gave you, should answer all your questions." when talking to someone you are trying to recruit, you already have the first few pavers down for your personal yellow brick road. Because the more things that you do, means you have a better chance for others to help with the rest.
But that also goes two ways. The more you do, the less they can try do to. Which means that people will start to feel left out, if you do not open your project up to flexibility. For a small example, I tend to use wonky, yet still technically correct, grammar and perspective when writing documents. If I don't watch myself, I can turn an otherwise logical document into something that is completely unapproachable by the rest of my team. If I wanted to, I could tell them to buck up and deal with it, or I could make the small concession, and use a readable, approachable, writing style. Simple things like that can make or break a team, so imagine what it means to take a hard line with the entire design. To give you an idea of our outlook on input, our unofficial motto is "Makin' games an' stealin' brains."
But in order to have brains to steal (and question ceaselessly) you must first have bait. The project that my team and I are working on happens to have a development forum, a dedicated website, and a blog, (if you want links, just send me a pm) while you have a few paragraphs. You can see why your idea does not have much of a hook; nobody knows what your idea is. As others have said, it is 50% development and 50% advertising, and until people can see that your idea is in fact a solid one, you will be pretty much stonewalled.
A Nobody with a good idea - Why cant we have a crack at game design too?
Quote:Original post by Elhrrah
stimarco has an idea
Lies! Right now, I have a filthy cold, so what passes for my brain is in test card mode. I won't start having ideas again until I'm off the 'Sudafed Day & Night'.
Aside from that, I agree.
I'm going to go ahead and say it, because the others seem too polite. I apologize in advance for being so blunt about it, but: Quit acting like an arrogant prick. You seem to think that you know everything there is to know about game design and as such believe that it is your right to have your vision made.
You don't even know how much you don't know. You have no experience, no way of knowing the pitfalls of the real development process, no way to know how to deal with unforeseen problems, no way to know how to deal with outright failure. Thats why you have to work your way up, its a learning process as well as a way to prove yourself.
Incidentally, this:
is the greatest idea ever. Be sure to do a full postmortem analysis of each game to maximize the learning. Seriously, I love this idea.
I don't necessarily agree with the "stop playing so many games" thing though. You can learn a whole lot from other designer's successes, and even more from their mistakes. I'd say play lots of games, and don't be picky about which ones you try, but don't spend very long on any given one. Its about exposing yourself to a variety of ideas and thinking about why the work or, more often, don't work.
You don't even know how much you don't know. You have no experience, no way of knowing the pitfalls of the real development process, no way to know how to deal with unforeseen problems, no way to know how to deal with outright failure. Thats why you have to work your way up, its a learning process as well as a way to prove yourself.
Incidentally, this:
Quote:Here's some homework: buy a deck of playing cards and make a new game with them every week. Write a blog about it.
is the greatest idea ever. Be sure to do a full postmortem analysis of each game to maximize the learning. Seriously, I love this idea.
I don't necessarily agree with the "stop playing so many games" thing though. You can learn a whole lot from other designer's successes, and even more from their mistakes. I'd say play lots of games, and don't be picky about which ones you try, but don't spend very long on any given one. Its about exposing yourself to a variety of ideas and thinking about why the work or, more often, don't work.
Please review the following quoted phrases...
See a pattern? Please stop loading your sentences with these conditional statements which come off as insecure and self-deprecating. It will get you no where in life.
Trust me, this is coming from someone who used to do the same thing.
If you believe that, then do so. Put it on paper, then let it sit. Comeback to it in a week, or even a month. Don't be surprised to find your idea wasn't as good as you originally thought. But that's okay. You can work to improve it, or you can let your mind move onto the next idea. Don't fall into the trap of being fixated on an idea until you flesh it out on paper thoroughly.
Let me clarify what I mean by "on paper thoroughly." Imagine writing a game design document that fully explains, in great detail, all aspects of your game that it could be made without your further involvement. This will take hundreds of pages, if not thousands, depending on the complexity and scope of your vision. And even with a good design document, the finished product would most likely not match the vision you imagined.
You're thinking too big! Forget about arcs, forget about franchises. Games, books, movies? Those are three different fields, buddy. It seems that you're not sure what you want to do. Do you want to write a book? Or are you designing a game? Are you making a film, a cartoon, a comic strip? You need to pick one media, one art form, and give that a shot. It's premature to be focusing on different media when you don't have your ideas incorporated in at least one completed media format.
Short answer: you don't.
As others suggested, forget about a studio picking up your idea. Rather, focus on getting your idea out of your mind and into a presentable format that others can read. Even if no one but yourself reads it, you will find it invaluable to see your idea on paper. It will help you catch a bad idea before you invest too much time in it. It will help you take good ideas and make them better.
Once you're confident that you have a great idea, fully fleshed out in such great detail that the average 8th grader can read and understand it, you have only one true option: build it yourself.
Yes, you read that correctly. As others have stated, even if you have a great idea, even if you have hundreds of pages of coherent, precise, and detailed documentation, people will be hesitant of joining a project without a working prototype.
Remember, you will not be building the entire game yourself. You will build a prototype, something that demonstrates your game's core gameplay. Others have listed various engines, frameworks, and game creation tools to get you started.
The key to prototyping is to forget about fancy artwork, large budget cut scenes, voice overs, and other polish. Concentrate on the gameplay mechanics and how your story integrates with it. Keep things simple, and release it to the community as soon as possible, even if it ends up only being 10 minutes of gameplay.
Once you get something out there, something people can play with, you can start to recruit volunteer talent to help you continue.
Just remember, even if you followed this advice to the letter and got to the goal of a working prototype, it doesn't necessarily mean people will want to work on your project. You either continue to build your prototype and try again, or give it a rest. It's a risk you need to willingly take.
Quote:Original post by Nozyspy
I have a reasonably good idea (I think...)
Quote:
I really don't want to sound arrogant or anything, because believe me that is not my intention at all...
Quote:
Please don't think that what I am about to say I say out of arrogance or ignorance, I am not that type of person.
Quote:
Phew... I do apologise of that seemed a bit of a rant...
Quote:
I really do have NO experience in, so I'm not sure that would go too well!
Quote:
...or if you simply want me to get lost..
Quote:
I look forward with somewhat fearful anticipation...
See a pattern? Please stop loading your sentences with these conditional statements which come off as insecure and self-deprecating. It will get you no where in life.
Trust me, this is coming from someone who used to do the same thing.
Quote:
I honestly think I could do most of the brain work for that single-handedly.
If you believe that, then do so. Put it on paper, then let it sit. Comeback to it in a week, or even a month. Don't be surprised to find your idea wasn't as good as you originally thought. But that's okay. You can work to improve it, or you can let your mind move onto the next idea. Don't fall into the trap of being fixated on an idea until you flesh it out on paper thoroughly.
Let me clarify what I mean by "on paper thoroughly." Imagine writing a game design document that fully explains, in great detail, all aspects of your game that it could be made without your further involvement. This will take hundreds of pages, if not thousands, depending on the complexity and scope of your vision. And even with a good design document, the finished product would most likely not match the vision you imagined.
Quote:
...designed to cover an arc of three games / books / movies whatever...
.
.
.
Overall story arc, covering multiple 'episodes' if necessary whilst still having each game as a story in its own right...
You're thinking too big! Forget about arcs, forget about franchises. Games, books, movies? Those are three different fields, buddy. It seems that you're not sure what you want to do. Do you want to write a book? Or are you designing a game? Are you making a film, a cartoon, a comic strip? You need to pick one media, one art form, and give that a shot. It's premature to be focusing on different media when you don't have your ideas incorporated in at least one completed media format.
Quote:
How do you get five minutes with the boss of a games studio?
Short answer: you don't.
As others suggested, forget about a studio picking up your idea. Rather, focus on getting your idea out of your mind and into a presentable format that others can read. Even if no one but yourself reads it, you will find it invaluable to see your idea on paper. It will help you catch a bad idea before you invest too much time in it. It will help you take good ideas and make them better.
Once you're confident that you have a great idea, fully fleshed out in such great detail that the average 8th grader can read and understand it, you have only one true option: build it yourself.
Yes, you read that correctly. As others have stated, even if you have a great idea, even if you have hundreds of pages of coherent, precise, and detailed documentation, people will be hesitant of joining a project without a working prototype.
Remember, you will not be building the entire game yourself. You will build a prototype, something that demonstrates your game's core gameplay. Others have listed various engines, frameworks, and game creation tools to get you started.
The key to prototyping is to forget about fancy artwork, large budget cut scenes, voice overs, and other polish. Concentrate on the gameplay mechanics and how your story integrates with it. Keep things simple, and release it to the community as soon as possible, even if it ends up only being 10 minutes of gameplay.
Once you get something out there, something people can play with, you can start to recruit volunteer talent to help you continue.
Just remember, even if you followed this advice to the letter and got to the goal of a working prototype, it doesn't necessarily mean people will want to work on your project. You either continue to build your prototype and try again, or give it a rest. It's a risk you need to willingly take.
Quote:Original post by drakostar
It's not that great ideas are a dime a dozen. But they're (quite literally) worthless without some kind of execution.
I do believe that ideas are a "dime a dozen" because literally everyone on your team is going to have a good idea or two. Heck, a random person off the street is going to have some good ideas. I think anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding himself. What separates a good designer and a not so good designer is that the good designer is going to be aware of these ideas. A single great idea doesn't make a game. A whole bunch of great ideas put together into a working system by a team makes a great game. Awesome execution of an idea does NOT come from just an idea, it comes from multiple people on a team working together, with their own ideas of how to get this concept to kick ass, and executing.
Quote:Nozyspy
How do you get five minutes with the boss of a games studio?
I think a lot of other people have spelled out pretty clear answers to most of your questions, though it does seem that it all breezed right past you. In answer to this particular question the answer is simple: just get a job working at a game company, because then you can just have chats with the CEO at the company all the time.
Quote:As for working in a team… yes I understand that game development is a team effort, but the thing is that the actual story and design of the game is dictated more by the designer (and unfortunately also by the executives) rather than the rest of the ‘minions’. At least as I understand it anyway. Afterall, if everyone was suggesting things to put in it, nothing would get done would it, there has to be someone up top who keeps on the course that was originally set. It’s like a director, the director doesn’t actually do any of the acting (normally) nor does he set up all the lights and such.
Uhmm .... no. At least in my experience anyways, and from chatting with other developers, the only studios that operate that way tend to go down hill pretty quickly. A coworker of mine's last company he worked at that operated that way went bankrupt, actually, because the CEO/Creative Director thought that his ideas were perfect and made his team stay true to his "grand design". Well, that design sucked and the customers in the end thought it sucked as well, so didn't buy the game.
[Edited by - zer0wolf on September 21, 2008 1:54:40 AM]
I've read through the thread and I didn't see this mentioned very much.
Even with the above thoughts that you have to be able to prove that you can design the game, execute that design on a budget and lead/inspire a team, you also have to be able to prove that the game will sell; and not just a few copies.
The game has to make back all development costs, support costs, advertising costs, etc. plus a percentage of return that is greater than if the company had just invested the money.
Effectively, in addition to everything else, you'd need to put together a business plan cover who are the target demographic(s), how often do they buy games, how often do they pirate games, how much expendable cash do they have, what's the usual cost of a game for this demographic, what other games are being marketed and sold to this demographic, are they direct competators, if so what will differentiate your game, etc. etc. etc. and the list goes on.
One important question you should always be prepared to answer is what genre is your game and what are the sales of similar games on the market.
Game companies are extremely risk averse, which is why you see so many rehashes and sequels. They would much rather spend their money on a game with a known return than gamble on a new idea which could have a large return but also lose a ton of money.
So, if you're game idea is so totally out there that you can't relate it to existing games, it's very unlikely (if with experience and a fully developed idea) that you'll be able to get any significant amount of funding.
Even with the above thoughts that you have to be able to prove that you can design the game, execute that design on a budget and lead/inspire a team, you also have to be able to prove that the game will sell; and not just a few copies.
The game has to make back all development costs, support costs, advertising costs, etc. plus a percentage of return that is greater than if the company had just invested the money.
Effectively, in addition to everything else, you'd need to put together a business plan cover who are the target demographic(s), how often do they buy games, how often do they pirate games, how much expendable cash do they have, what's the usual cost of a game for this demographic, what other games are being marketed and sold to this demographic, are they direct competators, if so what will differentiate your game, etc. etc. etc. and the list goes on.
One important question you should always be prepared to answer is what genre is your game and what are the sales of similar games on the market.
Game companies are extremely risk averse, which is why you see so many rehashes and sequels. They would much rather spend their money on a game with a known return than gamble on a new idea which could have a large return but also lose a ton of money.
So, if you're game idea is so totally out there that you can't relate it to existing games, it's very unlikely (if with experience and a fully developed idea) that you'll be able to get any significant amount of funding.
I like geolycosa's suggestion of designing small board and card games. This will allow you to put your money where your mouth is. If you haven't already, take a look at Formal Abstract Design Tools and a system called Mechanics, Design, Aesthetics. (Here's an article I wrote about it a few years ago)
I'd also like to challenge you to use this forum as a testbed. Take a look at posts here to see how others have solicited feedback on specific implementations of certain ideas. Do the same for the Game Writing forum.
I think this will help you build skills by exposing you to real criticism. It's easy to be a legend in our own minds, especially where art is concerned. If you have concerns about giving your ideas away, challenge yourself to come up with something that you can care about but that you can also walk away from.
Above all, please don't let yourself end up like the small legion of people I met when I worked in the game industry-- people who were so narcissistic that they could not see beyond their own perspective. The most common theme with them was to blame rather than face reality and get something (ANYTHING!) done.
EDIT: One other thing I meant to add. The strength of your vision and your communication ability may attract people to your work, which is why it's all the more important to put it out there. Even if the project goes nowhere (as most do) you will still learn about all of the things you don't know-- even that which you don't know you don't know.
I'd also like to challenge you to use this forum as a testbed. Take a look at posts here to see how others have solicited feedback on specific implementations of certain ideas. Do the same for the Game Writing forum.
I think this will help you build skills by exposing you to real criticism. It's easy to be a legend in our own minds, especially where art is concerned. If you have concerns about giving your ideas away, challenge yourself to come up with something that you can care about but that you can also walk away from.
Above all, please don't let yourself end up like the small legion of people I met when I worked in the game industry-- people who were so narcissistic that they could not see beyond their own perspective. The most common theme with them was to blame rather than face reality and get something (ANYTHING!) done.
EDIT: One other thing I meant to add. The strength of your vision and your communication ability may attract people to your work, which is why it's all the more important to put it out there. Even if the project goes nowhere (as most do) you will still learn about all of the things you don't know-- even that which you don't know you don't know.
Quote:Original post by zer0wolfQuote:Original post by drakostar
It's not that great ideas are a dime a dozen. But they're (quite literally) worthless without some kind of execution.
I do believe that ideas are a "dime a dozen" because literally everyone on your team is going to have a good idea or two. Heck, a random person off the street is going to have some good ideas.
Good != great. In my mind, a great idea for a game would be something novel that also provides a solid foundation to build upon. Not just something that sounds good but fizzles when you try to flesh it out, or a smaller idea for a gameplay mechanic or a puzzle or a level.
It's on the same level as coming up with an idea for a new product that could be successfully developed, manufactured, and sold. It's not extraordinary, but it's not exactly easy or common either.
Quote:Original post by zer0wolf
I do believe that ideas are a "dime a dozen" because literally everyone on your team is going to have a good idea or two. Heck, a random person off the street is going to have some good ideas. I think anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding himself.
This reminded me of Half-Life's Cabal design process.
Quote:
Throughout the first 11 months of the project we searched for an official "game designer," — someone who could show up and make it all come together. We looked at hundreds of resumes and interviewed a lot of promising applicants, but no one we looked at had enough of the qualities we wanted for us to seriously consider them the overall godlike "game designer" that we were told we needed. In the end, we came to the conclusion that this ideal person didn’t actually exist. Instead, we would create our own ideal by combining the strengths of a cross section of the company, putting them together in a group we called the "Cabal."
Obviously not all companies do it that way, and I'm not even sure Half-Life 2 was done using the Cabal, but what's fascinating is just how many people throughout the company had good ideas.
I found the same thing when I put together game design sessions at one place I worked. It kind of knocks you off your pedestal.
Yeah, the Cabal process used by Valve is exactly what I'm talking about here. I've read up on Valve's current processes and they're still doing exactly the same thing and have in fact pushed this concept for figuring out all of the processes of development, not just design. Look at the quality of their games and I would say it is pretty obvious this works quite well.
The company I work for wasn't really using this process when I started there a year ago, so I butted heads a bit with a few of the people who were used to running the show their way. However, due to my aggressive push on this mentality I gained a lot of respect from the rest of the team and now I am working as the Lead Designer on a 4 platform launch of a triple A title, the company's first.
drakostar, I don't really think in the world of game design there is that big of a difference between a good idea and a great idea. The big difference between the two has to do with timing and resources. Take Super Mario galaxy for instance. This game sold a gazillion copies, but actually didn't really have what I would call unique or innovative ideas. Everything they did in that game has been seen before in other games. What it did have was a bunch of good ideas put together by a hard working team that had a lot of faith in each other. One person has an idea for the concept of small worlds with their own gravities that Mario can jump around, another guy has an idea how to engineer it, and another guy has an idea on how to layout the levels and make this fun. This synergy of ideas and implementation is what made the game, and the idea, into a fun game.
The company I work for wasn't really using this process when I started there a year ago, so I butted heads a bit with a few of the people who were used to running the show their way. However, due to my aggressive push on this mentality I gained a lot of respect from the rest of the team and now I am working as the Lead Designer on a 4 platform launch of a triple A title, the company's first.
drakostar, I don't really think in the world of game design there is that big of a difference between a good idea and a great idea. The big difference between the two has to do with timing and resources. Take Super Mario galaxy for instance. This game sold a gazillion copies, but actually didn't really have what I would call unique or innovative ideas. Everything they did in that game has been seen before in other games. What it did have was a bunch of good ideas put together by a hard working team that had a lot of faith in each other. One person has an idea for the concept of small worlds with their own gravities that Mario can jump around, another guy has an idea how to engineer it, and another guy has an idea on how to layout the levels and make this fun. This synergy of ideas and implementation is what made the game, and the idea, into a fun game.
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