No, I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to the wind. The wind is so nice and noone ever talks to it so I thought I might.

Rage and miffed is not the same thing. There is a reason the english language has so many words that have similar meanings but mean completely different things. How you are talking denotes that you like fighters but lack the skill to compete in most of them so instead of getting more skilled at how they are design you think that changing the design will make it a better game regardless of how well it has worked for others.

You also forget that those long button combos and special moves are what make for people wanting to continue to play the game to master it. There is a definite balance there that has to be maintained to make a good fighter which is the difference between MK and SF/KoF and GG. GG is fairly simple in it's play mechanics and combos which leads to short lived fun and is why it has a smaller fan base, while MK has these long combos to do the most basic of things and make it harder to master and less fun to play which is why it too has a smaller fan base. SF and KOF both have slightly different play mechanics, but they allow for simplicity, but offer the complex for those who are willing to actually go learn them. What you are describing is that you want more simple things like GG and that's fine but is still a niche that not many care about even though it can lead to some fun rounds.

You could think of Super Smash brothers Melee, but the more you play it the more depth it has and that is largely due to those long button combos. It's more akin to SF and KoF then GG even though it does have a fairly simple play mechanic. It also doesn't try to front by making things look real complex but are easy to do which is what your suggesting from what I read. You want to be able to execute things fairly easily that look deep, and that is just not a good fighter.

Quote:Original post by Durakken
You don't seem to know your subject well and are miffed about the fact that you are not skilled at it, or at least that is what it seems. Those smooth half circles, quick button pushes, button sequences are about skill and strategy. As someone that has fought in real life and has played fighters against people who are on the world level of competition i can tell you they are pretty similar in the experience. What you are describing would take a person out and away from that experience.

Kest is right on everything on this thread so far. David Sirlin (top 5 US tournament player, Street Fighter HD Remix designer) agrees, and I doubt that is because he's miffed about not being good at fighting games.
http://forums.sirlin.net/showthread.php?t=341

Strip away complicated controls and you've still got a fighting game, potentially a very good one. Strip away everything but the controls and you've got a rhythm game, a joystick version of Guitar Hero.

why not just quote?

Quote:
b) It's ok that fighting games have a bunch of really hard dexterity requirements because either 1) they aren't hard to the person saying this or 2) it's part of the game. (Well, it's not part of the strategy. It's just an annoying barrier that keeps more people from playing the real game while giving you a leg-up that you frankly don't deserve. Note that removing the worst offenders still leaves a rich nuanced game of timing and positioning.)

This has nothing to do with what is being said. Because it's not true of most of the better and most popular games. Playing a fighter takes no more dexterity than it takes to type on a keyboard.

Quote:Original post by Durakken

Quote:
b) It's ok that fighting games have a bunch of really hard dexterity requirements because either 1) they aren't hard to the person saying this or 2) it's part of the game. (Well, it's not part of the strategy. It's just an annoying barrier that keeps more people from playing the real game while giving you a leg-up that you frankly don't deserve. Note that removing the worst offenders still leaves a rich nuanced game of timing and positioning.)

This has nothing to do with what is being said. Because it's not true of most of the better and most popular games. Playing a fighter takes no more dexterity than it takes to type on a keyboard.

You realize typing on a keyboard is *hard*, right? Most of the computer using populace can't touch type.

For that matter, Sirlin was talking about pretty much all current fighting games. It's plain to see that Street Fighter 2 Super Turbo control requirements are relatively mild compared to VF, SC, GG - and look what he's saying about ST.

Quote:(from http://www.sirlin.net/articles/street-fighter-hd-remix-design-overview.html)

Inside Street Fighter, there is a wonderful battle of wits, but many potential players are locked out of experiencing it because they can't dragon punch or do Fei Long's flying kicks, or whatever other joystick gymnastics. I'm reversing the trend. There's only so far I can go with this and still call it SF2, but wherever I could, I turned the knob towards easy execution of moves. Let's emphasize good decision making - the true core of competitive games - and get rid of artificially difficult commands.

This will get more players interested in the game, eventually leading to more competition. It will also get players past the awkward beginner phase faster and into the intermediate phase where the interesting strategy starts to emerge.

There are some players who wrongly believe that this "dumbs the game down." Actually, the opposite is true. Experts can perform special moves already, so the changes listed below have very little effect on them. Experts will care about actual balance changes such as hitboxes, recovery times, new properties for some moves, and so on. Making special moves easier, however, just allows everyone else to play the "real" game without needing to develop hundreds of hours of muscle memory just to perform the moves. It's actually sad to hear that some players think that their ability to execute a 360 command throw is why they are good, as opposed to the actual strategy of getting close enough to the opponent with Zangief to land the throw.

Quote:Original post by Durakken
How you are talking denotes that you like fighters but lack the skill to compete in most of them so instead of getting more skilled at how they are design you think that changing the design will make it a better game regardless of how well it has worked for others.

Actually, it's the opposite. I want more competition. With most fighters, once you reach a certain level of skill, only one or two people can provide a decent challenge. If they don't show up that day, the game is a complete bore. That's why, even as new fighters come out, my friends and I stick to Tekken 3 and Tekken Tag. Since we all know it so well, the competition is fierce. Since few of my friends run out and buy fighters regularly, it wouldn't be fair to switch.

Quote:What you are describing is that you want more simple things like GG and that's fine but is still a niche that not many care about even though it can lead to some fun rounds.

You're confusing the simplicity of combat with the simplicity of control. Understanding how to play the game and understanding how to beat an opponent are two very different things. Have you been using the first to beat your opponents? Do you prefer to win because your opponent doesn't know all of the moves, or because you reacted faster and/or outwitted him?

Quote:Original post by Kest

Quote:What you are describing is that you want more simple things like GG and that's fine but is still a niche that not many care about even though it can lead to some fun rounds.

You're confusing the simplicity of combat with the simplicity of control. Understanding how to play the game and understanding how to beat an opponent are two very different things. Have you been using the first to beat your opponents? Do you prefer to win because your opponent doesn't know all of the moves, or because you reacted faster and/or outwitted him?

Actually where I am is because I don't care too much about competing. I lose to most people I play with on a normal basis, but most people outside of that is too easy to beat. The reason that is is because the people I play with are on the world level of competition who play fighters constantly. I don't so I generally can't beat them though skill wise at my best I'm at regional level, but that's rare so on average I'm probably at average state level.

Personally I prefer to have fun than win or lose. I don't really care who wins and who loses because most people I play with are more just playing for fun than they are trying to compete since they actually do compete at championships...

Quote:Original post by Alpha Nox
Hello everyone,

I am coding a 2d fighting game with simple graphics and would like to know what do you think are the main problems and what features do most 2d fighting games lack?

I personally think they are too unreal and there's lack of flow between the techniques and also am not a big fan of having to memorize a series of buttons in order to perform a special attack.

What are your thoughts?

Any suggestions/ideas/opinions are appreciated.

I don't think 2D fighters lack anything. They can have as much depth as 3D fighters. It depends on the developer. Street Fighter 2 HD Remix, recenty released, has be bought and downloaded more than 250,000 times http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=21602. This shows that a 20 year old game can compete with the likes of Soul Calibur 4, Virtua Fighter 5, Smash Bros Brawl. There is nothing wrong with 2D, 2.5D, or 3D. Each type has its audience.

Quote:Original post by Durakken
Actually where I am is because I don't care too much about competing. I lose to most people I play with on a normal basis, but most people outside of that is too easy to beat. The reason that is is because the people I play with are on the world level of competition who play fighters constantly. I don't so I generally can't beat them though skill wise at my best I'm at regional level, but that's rare so on average I'm probably at average state level.

I've been playing fighters regularly in arcades since the very first Street Fighter II, and like any serious gamer, have learned things along the way that transcend the "mechanics" of individual games. However, even though I've had long lines of people waiting to fight me at arcades, I haven't played in any serious competitions.

But when I win, I don't win by knowing mechanics. I win with foresight and strategy. Such as recognizing that "this guy likes to use jump-kicks followed by sweeps, and is very insistent on charging in and throwing me when I block.". Obviously, after noticing this, I'll hold block after he jump kicks, but try not to sit still with block very often. If I've also noticed he likes to dash forward and attack as I'm getting up, I'll easily see that coming on occasion and launch a counter before he even starts to dash. This is what fighting is about. Not being able to perform half circles.

Quote:Personally I prefer to have fun than win or lose.

I enjoy losing. I don't like being destroyed, but I like being toppled. Especially when I have a large winning streak, and the game starts to get boring. Having someone walk up and put me in my place is my favorite moment of the day.

Quote:I don't really care who wins and who loses because most people I play with are more just playing for fun than they are trying to compete since they actually do compete at championships...

Yeah, but for me, it would be extremely fun to try to topple a champion.