Quote:Original post by dashurc

Quote:Original post by Way Walker
Don't make a game if the idea could be more clearly presented in a novel, movie, or song, and don't make any of those if you could more clearly present it in a written essay or by just saying it.

I think that's a load of crap though. If I've come up with the best story in the world, I'm not going to write a novel (regardless if it's the best suited medium for the job), I'm going to make a game, which is where my passions lie.

Sure, I was maybe a bit too strong. In perhaps most cases (i.e. not cases where the artist's preferred medium is completely inappropriate), it's better to have presented the idea in a less than ideal medium than for it to not have been presented in any medium at all. However, that still doesn't make it the ideal case.

It's something like what I was saying about Chrono Trigger. If the only way to reach an audience is by presenting it in a less than ideal medium, then it may still be worth it. If the only way the artist will present the idea is in a less than ideal medium, then it may still be worth it.

I think it's very much like someone else had written the novel and you're trying to make a game out of it, or any other case where something is brought from one medium to another. Sometimes it's good, like A Clockwork Orange. Sometimes it's not, like One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.

Chrono Trigger's basically an animated film that's intercut with a game that probably wouldn't be worth playing if it weren't required to watch the film (it's just fun enough that you'll play it to see the film, but no more than that). I think it would have been a better film if it weren't restricted to being a game, but I still found it enjoyable and it did bring me some measure of Joy/sehnsucht.

I think Deus Ex did a better job of using the medium. I think the interactivity was necessary to what it was doing. It used the fact that the story was essentially told in the second person to good effect and played on the choices you made. I think Fallout did this well, too, and is worth mentioning because it's seen from the same "hovering observer" perspective as Chrono Trigger.

Quote:
I think this is where the whole "videogames as art" discussion becomes pointless. Not everything has to be perfect. Not everything has to be efficient. Not everything has to be meaningful. And in my opinion, the harder you try to force something, the more likely you'll fail.

Or "anything as art", or simply "art", right? But, I think the "forcing it" can apply to what I'm saying, as well. If you have a story that's most naturally a novel but you're most naturally a game designer, you're either going to have to force yourself to be a novelist or the story to be a game, neither of which lends itself for success.

Well, off the top of my head I can cite BioShock as a politically packed game (Vote Andrew Ryan FTW!), Deus Ex has some of that too if that's the kind of impact you want to have, it is definitely possible, and has been done.

If you want to emotionally move the player then the list is extensive as well, Final Fantasy VII is the classic example, to me personally there is the Metal Gear Solid series, the Legacy Of Kain Series, Starcraft if you pay close attention to the story, Max Payne and Bioware games in general.

Masters Of Doom, the book about id right? id is more about pushing technology than creating an impact on their audience.

To make even one person smile, or cry, or grimace- what can be more important? When I work on games, it's because I have to. I don't 'debate' it, I just have to.

mdkess: I can totally understand what you're talking about. I've had the same feelings about majority of games for a long time, and were asking myself pretty much the same questions.

What is important here is to realize that this is not just a question of how games are labeled - "art" is a highly subjective term and to debate what art is is out scope of this thread and quite irrelevant in the end.

In my opinion, large majority of games today are shallow, immature and even plain stupid content-wise. There's a lot of flash and style (advanced graphics, polished presentation etc.), but very little substance. There is no lack of:
- simple, trivial dialogue;
- one dimensional, unrealistic game characters (good vs. evil stereotypes)
- trivialization of violence (I admit that this is a complex topic and that it could be asked if it is even possible for violence NOT to be trivialized in media);
- oversimplified topics that are complex in reality ("here are the good US Troops, and there are those inherently bad Germans, kill kill kill!" - see Call of Duty).

How many AAA games where history was portrayed in at least somehow realistic manner can you count (I don't mean realistic in the sense of 'realistic action', but rather realistic in the way that it's not black&white), or how many games that made you think the way some pieces of literature or film can make you think?
I can think of many games that can be compared to (this won't be a very good example, but still) random Chuck Norris flick, or maybe to Rambo etc. - but I can't think of any on the level of Apocalypse Now, Full Metal Jacket etc. And it's irrelevant whether or not you like these movies or find them pretentious art crap, it's the complexity of their approach that is important here, not the labels they are given (even if one thinks there is nothing complex in that approach - with games it almost never comes even to the point where this kind of complexity would be discussed), and I just don't see this approach in many games. But that's just current state, and it in no way means games have no potential for anything else.

Lots of people say "but games are supposed to be fun, who the hell even cares about all that!", and I disagree. I find this whole "games are supposed to be entertainment only" logic flawed. I think that games can be whatever we (developers and players) want them to be in terms of experience. There is definitely a lot of potential for that and given the advantages of games (as a medium) a lot of interesting things could be done. Yet to me it seems the industry could care less about that - which is quite understandable, because most games (AAA games in particular) are made to make money, and their target audience is mostly adolescent boys (I know that a lot of players are older, but that's not the point). If there could be a market for more "serious", adult games (no, not THAT games! ;)) is a matter of another debate, but at least speaking for myself I would really appreciate more games like that (even the indie scene doesn't help much in that department).
And I hope there is no misunderstanding here - I'm not saying ALL games should be like that; there is nothing wrong with entertainment alone, these games can be fun and great to play; it's the oversaturation of market with that games, and the lack of mature games that bother me (and some other people it would seem).

Quote:Original post by mdkess
I haven't seen a game that can match a good movie or novel or painting in terms of impact.

I haven't seen many either, but I suggest you try looking at games that are not very well known. I haven't played any of these (except Fahrenheit), but according to some other people, here are a few titles that you might consider giving a try:
- Xenosaga
- Syberia
- Planescape Torment
- Gabriel Knight: Sins of the Fathers
- Fahrenheit (Indigo Prophecy in NA)
- Ico

Quote:Original post by mdkess
As video game developers or designers, how and where do you find meaning in your work?

I'm just a hobby developer so that probably doesn't help, but right now I am working (as much as time allows me) on a game with emphasis on story and characters. I don't want to give away anything else (besides it's far far from finished), but at least I believe that games can be "more than just pornography". You can do a lot of interesting things in games if you use some imagination. There are limitations of the medium (some things are very hard to depict the way you want), but there are also advantages (interactivity being an obvious one).
When it comes to working in games industry full time, though, I have no idea what to do (I'm still in college and haven't quite figured that out).

[Edited by - Wingman on February 1, 2009 8:32:35 AM]

One little comment, I find it funny that the people critizing games for not being "deep enough" or "realistic enough" storywise (ie not bein black and white) have not played many games in the past, they confess that they enjoy games like unreal and quake but criticize them for not being "deep enough".

I suggest anyone to pick up and finish several of the games mentioned already, heres a good recop list:

- The final fantasy series
- The metal gear series
- The zelda series
- Xenosaga
- The Syberia series
- Planescape Torment
- The Gabriel Knight series
- The monkey island series
- The broken sword series
- Grim fandango
- Fahrenheit (Indigo Prophecy in NA)
- Ico
- The silent hill series
- Mafia series
- F.E.A.R
- Half Life series
- Fallout series
- Bioshock

I could keep going but I think that's enough.

There are way too many good games out there with amazing stories and gameplay capable of invoking all sorts of emotions: joy, fear, surprise, sadness, anger etc. With all due respect anyone who has played any of those games wouldn't be asking if games are more than just porn.

Quote:Original post by mdkess
I haven't seen a game that can match a good movie or novel or painting in terms of impact.

Then you haven't gone out much. There are far fewer people who play games than those who watch movies, simply because in order to enjoy games, you have to be good at it. So, in a way, it is true that video games have less impact to the culture than movies. There are, however, some meaningful impact that video games have created. Tetris, Mario, Starcraft, and Wii are some of the examples.

Starcraft pretty much dominates South Korea. I have seen Mario references outside of video games culture because it's one of the first video game franchises and quite a lot of people have played Mario in Game Watches or NES back when they were young. They don't necessarily own a PS3 nowadays, but they've had their share of gaming moments. Wii is another video game phenomenon because older people can actually enjoy playing video games now. Have you seen Tropic Thunder? IIRC, one of the guys was playing Wii while talking to Ben Stiller over the phone. Don't even mention Pong, Pinball games, Atari, Tetris, Pacman, and Bejeweled.

Quote:Original post by ndatxcod
One little comment, I find it funny that the people critizing games for not being "deep enough" or "realistic enough" storywise (ie not bein black and white) have not played many games in the past, they confess that they enjoy games like unreal and quake but criticize them for not being "deep enough".

I suggest anyone to pick up and finish several of the games mentioned already, heres a good recop list:

- The final fantasy series
- The metal gear series
- The zelda series
- Xenosaga
- The Syberia series
- Planescape Torment
- The Gabriel Knight series
- The monkey island series
- The broken sword series
- Grim fandango
- Fahrenheit (Indigo Prophecy in NA)
- Ico
- The silent hill series
- Mafia series
- F.E.A.R
- Half Life series
- Fallout series
- Bioshock

I could keep going but I think that's enough.

There are way too many good games out there with amazing stories and gameplay capable of invoking all sorts of emotions: joy, fear, surprise, sadness, anger etc. With all due respect anyone who has played any of those games wouldn't be asking if games are more than just porn.

Believe me, I have played plenty of video games. My main question was whether I wanted to go into the video game industry. I find Unreal Tournament satisfying, but I wouldn't want to make games like Unreal Tournament (in a similar sense that I like watching and playing sports, but I don't want to be a professional athlete). I don't think that people who make games like UT are wasting their time, I just don't think that it's for me. I've played most of those games on that list - never Ico, since it costs like $80 now, but I did play Shadows of the Colossus, which is another one of my favourites, and actually fairly thought provoking. None of the others really did much for me in terms of making me think though. Fahrenheit started out well, but it quite fell apart in the end. Japanese RPGs are for the most part just walking between cut scenes, so I never really got into them (although I have played all of the Final Fantasy games, except 11 and X-2). Everyone points to FF7 as a case of emotion in video games, but phoenix downs, come on. Half-Life, FEAR and Bioshock had interesting stories, but the games themselves pretty much boiled down to clicking on enemies until they died. All of those games (at least the ones I've played) are quite fun, but it always feels like empty fun to me.

One exception to all of this was Armageddon MUD, which inspired me very much. It was however more of a chat room than a game, so I don't think that it counts.