Effect of grades and undergraduate college on success in life

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Original post by Ntvu 1) Do you think that high school performance can affect, whether directly or indirectly, your success in life? If so, how?

Only insomuch as you need a high school education to get into college. Once you graduate from college, no-one is going to care about your high-school marks.

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Original post by Ntvu 2) How much does your undergraduate degree matter when aiming for jobs in the high-tech (eg: computers, engineering, information technology, web development) sector?

Having a degree matters a good deal for entry-level jobs. Its possible to get an entry-level job without a degree if you have some other way of demonstrating your competence. However, for the most part, its pretty important to get a college educations.

I think you're over-emphasizing the importance of where you get your education though. The more work experience you have, the less important your degree comes. 10 years after college, no-one is going to care which institute your degree came from.

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Original post by Ntvu 3) Is it true that technical/computer education is inferior if taught at a not-so-great state university?

No, not really. Yes, its true that top-tier colleges are top-tier for a reason, but you can get a solid, competent education from a wide range of state universities. There are plenty of good and great universities that are not MIT/Stanford/etc.

There are "not-so-great" universities, such as diploma mills, but those are fairly easy to weed out with a bit of research. Just do some due-diligence about the college you pick.

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Original post by Ntvu 4) I heard that large computers like Google, IBM and Microsoft almost never recruit at universities other than the brand name ones like MIT, CMU, Stanford, etc. With this in mind, does this mean that if I don't go to one of those universities famous for their tech/computer program, I can basically kiss my chances of working for one of these companies goodbye forever?

No, absolutely not. Recruiters at these companies may look more favorably at a degree from, say, MIT, but you're vastly over-estimating the importance they give the institution. They do care that you have a degree, and that its not a degree from a diploma mill. However, they will more heavily weigh your previous work experience than the institution that you got your degree from. Places like Google will also give a lot of weight to things like involvement with open-source projects.

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Original post by Ntvu 5) What's your story? How did you do in high school and what undergraduate college did you go to? Do you think it affected or limited the types of jobs (of course, again, in the tech industry but feel free to include other categories as well) you could get?

I did very well in high school. My college is The University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign. My first job out of college was at a pretty small place, and from there I worked my way up to "better" jobs.

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Original post by Ntvu 6) Is there anything else you can add that could help me or relieve me of my current stress?

Yes. If you're targeting a software development job, the best thing you can do is write software. Contribute to open source projects. Do personal projects. Put them up on a web-site. Join clubs or professional organizations in college.

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Original post by Ntvu I get really nervous when I start thinking about college. Imagining the college experience doesn't make me nervous, it's just the thought of college admissions that do. I really want to get a decent job when I graduate and get my 4-year degree, but I need to know whether all this effort I'm currently putting into studying for school, test and pursuing activities is worth it?

OK, the first thing I'd like to point out: You're above average. A 2040 SAT score is above average. In fact, if Wikipedia is accurate, that puts you in the top 10%, which is pretty damn far above average. Back when I applied to college, I was around that ballpark in my ACT and SAT scores. I was able to get into UIUC, which is a highly-ranked school for engineering and computer science.

The only weak point would be your extra-curriculars. That might ding you a bit, but you're still going to be able to get into good schools.

Stop worrying about getting into the "best" college apply to any that you can. Apply to the schools you want to go to, plus a couple of "safe" back-up options. If you don't get into the school you want, then spend a couple of years at your back-up, maintain good grades, and try to transfer into the one you want to be in.

Whatever college you go to, its important that you build up experience working on software projects. Do a senior project. Contribute to open source. Do some extracurricular projects. These are the kinds of things that those big-name employers like to see on entry-level resumes. Make a "portfolio." Pretty much across the board, guys who spent their free time writing software got better jobs faster than guys who spent all their free time playing video games.

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Original post by Ntvu Finally, I have a website that contains a portfolio of programs, games and websites that I've created over the years. I started programming in middle school and created the website last year. How much do you think that could help me for college admissions?

A great deal. It shows an ability to learn and motivation. Put it on your college applications.

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I seem to have misread some of what you stated. You seem to be asking if its important for you to put a lot of effort in going to a good college. Yes, its important. Try to get into the best college you can. Make the most of your education in that college. Just don't kill yourself with stress over it. You're not expected to be perfect.

My $0.02 on these matters:

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Original post by Ntvu 1) Do you think that high school performance can affect, whether directly or indirectly, your success in life? If so, how?

Yes, it almost definitely does. If you dick around at school deliberately then you're setting yourself up to fail. Seeing as your school grades are important wherever you end up (they're needed for low-end jobs as well as application to higher education such as University) they'll be hanging around your neck forever. Very few jobs are open to those with absolutely zero qualifications.

Also, dicking around at school can become ingrained in your behaviour and that, again, will set you adversely for life.

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2) How much does your undergraduate degree matter when aiming for jobs in the high-tech (eg: computers, engineering, information technology, web development) sector?

People look for it, but it doesn't seem to me to be important. It's more an indicator of your potential and brain power as opposed to what you're immediately capable of.

I've worked with development managers who don't have a degree, and not-quite-entry-level developers with better qualifications than me but they still know alarmingly little. In fact, a lot of grizzled veterans look down on graduates and throw them in the deep end simply because the real world of software development is chalk and cheese to what you learn in education. A lot of professional software development skips over the finer points of a degree also.

I'd say your ability to learn, your passion and your drive is more important than your actual education. Don't want to burst your bubble too early, but you'll likely find yourself disillusioned and fed up of college/University by the end because 70% of it really isn't worth the effort and is there to fill out the timetable, and you'll never use half of it again. There are also other things which bug me but as a currently active student I'll refrain.

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3) Is it true that technical/computer education is inferior if taught at a not-so-great state university?

Not too sure about this one. It depends on the sort of course you're on and the type of institution it is. The big name traditional well known universities and colleges tend to go for theoretical, esoterical approaches whereas the lesser ones tend to focus more on practical skills.

For the record, I've been to both types and found the latter much more suited to me but you may think differently.

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4) I heard that large computers like Google, IBM and Microsoft almost never recruit at universities other than the brand name ones like MIT, CMU, Stanford, etc. With this in mind, does this mean that if I don't go to one of those universities famous for their tech/computer program, I can basically kiss my chances of working for one of these companies goodbye forever?

I'd have to disagree with earlier posts and say "pretty much". It's the same in the UK - if you don't have a specific class of degree from a very select few Universities then you can go and get fucked. Don't feel too put out because I'm likely in that boat too but, if they're going to be that snooty about who they recruit, chances are you don't want to work there anyway. My brother had a friend at Cambridge UK who got into Microsoft, but somebody I knew had a better degree but from a lesser institution and got rejected. It was likely down to the names involved but there may have been other issues too.

They attract the top because they're a bunch of complete slavedrivers. I've heard some absolute horror stories about working at Google and MS and I'd definitely rather work somewhere smaller and more manageable, but that's just me. They look for the top and the best people because they're producing bleeding-edge apps likely to make or break the business and there's no room for quality concerns (although some users of MS products may assume MS don't stick to this).

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5) What's your story? How did you do in high school and what undergraduate college did you go to? Do you think it affected or limited the types of jobs (of course, again, in the tech industry but feel free to include other categories as well) you could get?

I did pretty well in high school. Not fantastic, but enough above mediocre to get me into the course I thought I wanted.

Failed the course after the second year but managed to seamlessly transfer into another course at another institution and am loving it. In my final year now, which is very stressful and full of pointless crap but then again it's only 9 months before I can move onto the postgraduate study I'm applying for (if they let me in) and then onto a job, with any luck.

I discovered from interning that software development isn't for me, so I'm planning on doing a postgraduate degree to widen my options. Sure, going to University for another 18 months makes me sick to the depths of my stomach but it means I can avoid the dole queue and do a job I might actually want to do.

Beware the computing graduate trap of death: if you don't do postgraduate study, you'll more than likely end up in software development. Forever. It's the default getting off point for those who don't push themselves, it's the McDonald's of the IT industry - doesn't take too much brain power or initiative (it really doesn't, you'd be surprised about how mechanical and rigid it is) and any idiot can do it (see my point about the development manager with no degree, proves that anyone can simply learn to code then claw their way up).

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6) Is there anything else you can add that could help me or relieve me of my current stress?

I would suggest having a quiet drink, but you're American and under 21 so you'll probably end up with 73 years in prison or some other arbitrary and ludicrously high number.

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Finally, I have a website that contains a portfolio of programs, games and websites that I've created over the years. I started programming in middle school and created the website last year. How much do you think that could help me for college admissions?

Put it on your CV and make sure it looks professional and is bang up to date with your best work. It proves outside interest and, hopefully, some kind of proficiency.

[Edited by - ukdeveloper on January 4, 2010 8:14:24 PM]

As far as being a game programmer goes, the college you go to, or even how well you are graded while you're there, is pretty meaningless. All that matters is that you've done a college degree AND you're capable of doing the job.

Simply going to college will not make you capable of doing a job. You've got to do that yourself, in your own time.

1) If you don't pay attention in school it will slow you down considerably, but won't stop you.
2) Having a degree means HR won't throw out your resume right away.
3) I don't think so. College education is mostly up to the student's initiative anyway.
4) No. They care about talent. If you were educated in the backwaters of Brazil but actually care about learning to be the best engineer you can, then you'll be able to work at Google.
5) I was ~80th percentile in High-School, which got me into a rural non-prestigious university. I did a generic "IT" degree, majoring in software engineering. Landed a games-programming job a year before I graduated due to working on game mods outside of school. Finished my degree part-time (via distance-education) while working.
6) If you've got the drive, you can get anywhere ;)

I'm going to answer this question first as it provides the basis for my other answers.

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Original post by Ntvu 5) What's your story? How did you do in high school and what undergraduate college did you go to? Do you think it affected or limited the types of jobs (of course, again, in the tech industry but feel free to include other categories as well) you could get?

I did ok in high school. High school bored me to tears. I couldn't wait to leave. I did well enough in my exams to get a place in university, but only just. I just wasn't interested.

When I got to uni, I worked a bit harder, but again, I could've done better if I'd applied myself more. Basically I got caught up in other things and it wasn't until I realised I was actually pretty good at programming that I started to take it a bit more seriously. I still ended up with an honours degree, but I could've done better.

That was over years ago. Since then I've worked steadily as a developer. I don't feel my grades in either high school or university have influenced my career in any significant fashion. They would probably exclude me from ever getting certain jobs (google, for instance), but frankly, I don't care. Work is a means to an end for me. I want to make enough money to do the things I enjoy, but I'm not interested in "climbing the corporate ladder".

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Original post by Ntvu 1) Do you think that high school performance can affect, whether directly or indirectly, your success in life? If so, how?

Only in as much as you need to get decent grades to get a 3rd level qualification.

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Original post by Ntvu 2) How much does your undergraduate degree matter when aiming for jobs in the high-tech (eg: computers, engineering, information technology, web development) sector?

A lot of places will require a tertiary qualification. Many times the people who are actually hiring (i.e. the HR dept) won't have any tech experience and won't even consider you if you don't meet their checklist.

As you become more senior this will become less of a issue as you will generally tend to be assessed more personally.

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Original post by Ntvu 3) Is it true that technical/computer education is inferior if taught at a not-so-great state university?

Can't comment on uni education in the states, but IMHO, you will learn more in your first 6 months on a "real" project than you will in 4 years of college.

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Original post by Ntvu 4) I heard that large computers like Google, IBM and Microsoft almost never recruit at universities other than the brand name ones like MIT, CMU, Stanford, etc. With this in mind, does this mean that if I don't go to one of those universities famous for their tech/computer program, I can basically kiss my chances of working for one of these companies goodbye forever?

Google are well known for their strict hiring processes. As I mentioned earlier, they will look at your entire academic history. However, they don't hire exclusively from those universities. I know a few people who work at google, and they went to average universities in europe.

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Original post by Ntvu 6) Is there anything else you can add that could help me or relieve me of my current stress? I get really nervous when I start thinking about college. Imagining the college experience doesn't make me nervous, it's just the thought of college admissions that do. I really want to get a decent job when I graduate and get my 4-year degree, but I need to know whether all this effort I'm currently putting into studying for school, test and pursuing activities is worth it?

That depends on your goals in life.

1) Affects what college you get into. Grades and education give you a boost right out of college, but that wears off after a few years.

2) It gives you that first step, which is hard to get otherwise. Once you have something to show on your resume or some work experience, it doesn't matter that much.

3) Yes, I go to a very good CS school, not one of the ones that you mentioned, but up there. And even here I see the wide range of teaching skills that teachers have and how curriculum heavily affects what students learn (it has changed over the last few years)

4) Yes and no, like number 2, being in a good school gives a big advantage. Think about it like branding. You're more likely to buy something from a company with a good reputation - say Kellogg's, instead of some weird brand in a side ally. The recruiters come to you, you don't have to actively pursue them. With that said, it isn't impossible to get in those companies, you just have to work harder and be sure that your skill is up there.

5) Top 5% in high school, choose my college on ranking. Don't really care about my college gpa, but, I have the programming skill to show that I am very skilled. (This is really all that matters). Being at a good school defiantly helped get my first internship. Interned at Microsoft the summer of freshman year (not explorer's program, normal internship with the full interview process). To get noticed, be really passionate to the recruiter. I remember talking a lot about how excited I was about DX10. Now with Msft on my resume, companies are a lot more eager to talk to me.

6) The important things in the long run are: How good are you at what you do (programming depth + breadth of knowledge). How fast you can pick up new concepts. Networking. Communication. Always challenging yourself to make the next step. In the long run, grades don't matter. But in the short run, if you want to make the first few years of your post-college life very successful, good grades and getting in a good school do matter.

7) Portfolios are great. They can make up for a less than great GPA since they show what you can actually do. A good portfolio can make a lot of difference.

Sidenote, are your parents of Asian decent? Cause Asian families seem especially keen on grades.

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Original post by Ntvu I'm also worried too, that if I don't get into a good college, then I won't be able to find a good job and that I'll ruin my goals.

That is probably the most important answer to your questions.

What exactly are your goals? What are your ambitions? What are your passions?


You need to do some serious soul searching to come up with answers to that. One of life's cruel ironies is that these fundamantally important questions must be answered by those least competent to do it.

Figure out your passions. I suggest going to get a book, "What Color Is Your Parachute" by Bolles. You can get any old edition, and your parents probably have a copy around the house. In the appendix he has a thing he calls the Flower Diagram. It is a soul-searching exercise that can help you out. Doing it well requires a week or more of introspection.




>> 1) Do you think that high school performance...

Others have said how it affects post-secondary education. But do you want that path of life? Perhaps your passion is to enter a trade like plumbing and pipe laying, masonry, auto detailing, or other non-academic fields. You may have a life ambition that has absolutely nothing to do with post-secondary education. Until you know your destination, it is very hard to plot a course.

>> 2) How much does your undergraduate degree matter in the high-tech sector?

Employers want to know that you can do the job and that you will fit in. The job requires an education, and you are surrounded by smart, educated people. Having a college degree shows evidence to both concerns.

>> 3) Is it true that technical/computer education is inferior if taught at a not-so-great state university?

It doesn't matter. Get a degree from wherever you can. The education is more dependent on the student than the school. Even awesome schools can churn out bad apples, and the brightest people can certainly come out of more humble beginnings.

I'd equate a renowned University vs a lowly state school as around a half year of work experience. It isn't enough to concern yourself over. Much more important is your own ability to learn and work, and your ability to show employers that you can do the job. I'd take a hard-working smart person from a small school over a snobby person from a big name school any day.

>> 4) I heard ... kiss my chances of working for one of these companies goodbye forever?

It seems like you are confused. Recruiting means the company goes directly to the school trying to find applicants. Very few employees are recruited, almost every one of them applied for a job in the more traditional routes of networking with friends and directly applying to positions.

Companies like those you mentioned, Microsoft, IBM and Google, are always hiring. They need everything from lowly testers to code grunts that do the bulk of the work, to PhD researchers.

Game companies generally don't need PhD researchers, but otherwise they still need a wide range of skilled workers.

>> 5) What's your story?

I went to a lowly state school for undergraduate education, then attended a somewhat well known school for graduate studies. My peers range from those with some college to others with master's degrees.

I went on to graduate studies because that was my passion, not because of a job.

I was able to advance in my career a bit faster than my peers, but this was again mostly due to my own passions. It was helped by my education, but it was not because of the education. We have people almost twice my age who are content to be code monkeys, and that is their passion. My passion is to fill a mentoring role, which means team leadership.

>> 6) Is there anything else you can add that could help me or relieve me of my current stress?

Rule #1: It Doesn't Matter. In the Grand Scheme of Things, the everyday stresses are irrelavant.
Rule #2. Learn Rule #1.
Rule #3. You obviously don't understand. Go back to Rule #1.



>> How much do you think that could help me for college admissions?

Nothing at all. Admissions don't care about that. It may not seem like this now, but you will learn that they care about your ability to pay and your ability to complete the program.

When you are coming straight from high school they look at your GPA and test scores to try to weed you out. Too many people jump straight to college because it is expected rather than because they want it. If you don't get in at first, just attend a community college for a year or two. They are cheaper anyway. Either get an associate’s degree and then move to a bigger school, or transfer to the bigger school after a year or so.

1) In my opinion, high school performance is just a so-so indicator of how much you care. It's always possible to pull a 180 and become Superman even if you didn't do anything in HS. The reverse is also true.

2) It depends on the company. If the company needs to hire someone but nobody is applying, they will overlook slight differences in degrees. If a company is getting flooded with applications they use the resume for "broad phase culling" purposes. We've hired mechanical engineers for game programming positions where I work.

3) Maybe. It depends on how much the professors care. I went to Oregon Tech, and about 2/3 of the faculty REALLY cared about teaching the students. The other 1/3 didn't. Campuses with more $$$ rolling in can probably afford a higher ratio of professors who care.

4) I can only speak for Microsoft. Microsoft likes to form 'academic alliances' with colleges, and tends to recruit from those campuses. Even so, it's not a free ride into MS. There's still a horribly complicated interview process even for people from Alliance campuses. I know four people from my graduating class who are working for Microsoft, which is probably a pretty good ratio considering the Software portion of my graduating class was only like 50 people. Then again, only one of those people got hired straight out of college. The other three had to bide their time with "random" jobs like I did (below).

5) In high school, I wasn't really doing anything except schoolwork and teaching myself programming in my free time. I got into Oregon Tech without any real effort on my part (I had to get student loans like almost everyone else). I would say that college drastically improved the types of jobs I would be able to do. However, I've been focusing on game programming since elementary school. The main thing college gave me was a backup plan so that I could get jobs while I waited for game studios to finally start hiring new people.

6) You sound a lot like me. The last year of high school and the last year of college are probably the most stressful times I have ever experienced. My parents also pushed me to succeed pretty hard. I had several bouts of extreme depression during summer break in college since I couldn't find any summer jobs related to programming. In hindsight, I shouldn't have worried so much. After college, you have INFINITE time.

What did I end up doing through college and after college?
- I got a temp job to make some quick cash.
- I applied shipping labels to frozen beef exports at a cold storage facility (I learned various beef-related words in Russian and Japanese).
- I helped deliver Coca-Cola to truck stops.
- I worked at a flood cleanup place, and had the fun experience of cleaning up several sewer/septic tank floods. YUM... D:
- I rode on the back of garbage trucks, picking up trash bags!
- I worked at a grocery store stocking shelves.
- I helped vectorize figures / diagrams for patent and trademark applications.
- I worked at a Monster.com wanna-be, optimizing a horrendously designed database and fixing web security holes.
- I helped architect a REAL SQL database for a grain processing mill.
- I worked at a game company with a total staff of 5 people run by a megalomaniac where the average employee got fed up with the boss's attitude and only worked 4 months before quitting.
- FINALLY I got hired at a real game development company and my lifelong goal finally came true.

So basically what I'm saying is: Don't worry too much about the future, since it can change so rapidly, and you ALWAYS have other choices!

[Edited by - Nypyren on January 4, 2010 10:13:17 PM]

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1) Do you think that high school performance can affect, whether directly or indirectly, your success in life? If so, how?

No way at all, except in what college you get into. The best advice I can give - take as many AP's as you can, especially if you're school gives a GPA bonus for it (and if they don't, just take them senior year when your GPA won't matter). AP courses look great on your college application, especially if you scored high. More importantly, they will give you credit when you get into college, allowing you to graduate sooner or have more flexibility in what you want to take.

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2) How much does your undergraduate degree matter when aiming for jobs in the high-tech (eg: computers, engineering, information technology, web development) sector?

It does matter, but it's not the only important thing. As long as you went to a pretty good school (which I'm sure you could do with just your GPA and SAT score), then you won't be excluded from any job just because of the name of your school. It will really come down to how well you do in the college you attend.

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3) Is it true that technical/computer education is inferior if taught at a not-so-great state university?

I have nothing to compare to, but I went to a state university and I thought the education was fine. Especially if you're planning to enter the workforce and not pursue academic research, I think there's not a big difference between a decent state school and a top-tier university.

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4) I heard that large computers like Google, IBM and Microsoft almost never recruit at universities other than the brand name ones like MIT, CMU, Stanford, etc. With this in mind, does this mean that if I don't go to one of those universities famous for their tech/computer program, I can basically kiss my chances of working for one of these companies goodbye forever?

I went to Rutgers, the state school of New Jersey. I think the average SAT score for admitted applicants is around 1900 there, so it's what I consider a "second tier" school. But I did very well in school, applied to Google, and made it to the second interview stage. Admittedly, the other people that were interviewing the same day as me were from schools like Princeton and Cornell, but the top companies certainly don't discriminate based on the school you went to. A lot of factors come into play. I also have a friend from Rutgers who is working at Google now, and a few more working at IBM/Microsoft.

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5) What's your story? How did you do in high school and what undergraduate college did you go to? Do you think it affected or limited the types of jobs (of course, again, in the tech industry but feel free to include other categories as well) you could get?

I got a 1460 on my SAT's (the old one out of 1600) and was in the top 15% of my class. I also had poor extracurricular activities. I applied only to Rutgers, my state school, and was accepted. I only applied to there because it was close by, cheap, and a reasonably good school. I think I got a great education there, with some very talented professors. I did very well, got a 3.95 GPA, and double majored in math and CS last year. I think the school I went to plays a minor, if any role, in my job search. Honestly, I don't think there's any company that would turn me down or toss out my application just because of the school I went to.

However, one thing you should consider is what the other people at your university will be like. The people you attend school with are probably going to be the most important friends you make in your life. If you go to a top place like Harvard or Stanford, your friends will be the people starting the next Google or Facebook. Going to a place like that will give you connections that you can't get at a place like Rutgers. Even aside from the connections, top schools have a far more academic environment. I've listened to lectures from Yale and Stanford on iTunes, and I'm consistently amazed that the students in those classes actually ask intelligent questions. It's nothing like my experience at Rutgers.

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6) Is there anything else you can add that could help me or relieve me of my current stress?

You're doing fine. Your SAT and GPA are high enough that you can get into a good school, and as long as you do well there you will not be limited in your job search.

Sorry I didn’t read the other responses.

1. Only to the point that your performance is related to your character and working habits. For example, if you perform badly in high school because you are lazy or a habitual procrastinator, then you will probably be a habitual procrastinator outside of work, and that will affect your success in life. If you perform poorly in school because you are bored or lose interest quickly, then it boils down to finding a profession that interests you.

2. By kind do you mean the major or school? Your major is important, if you want to work in IT it will be best to have a related major (ie computer engineering, computer science, CIS, etc.). The school is not important at all (to most people) unless you are going to a notoriously good school (like MIT).

3. Possibly, but you should do the majority of your learning outside of school.

4. Going to MIT is going to make any career you choose easier to get into. At a price tag of about $50k a year. Otherwise, you can work on your networking skills (people not machines) and start working on an impressive technical portfolio. If you’re Microsoft, what is more appealing? A green kid from MIT or someone with a degree from UF that went to a few Microsoft seminars and then built a website that runs games made in Silverlight?

5. I did good from Grades 1-10, slacked off junior and senior year hard. Went to college and dropped out after a year (due to slacking off). And then worked for a multitude of people and jobs. When my friends were graduating, I had 3 years of real experience that was much more important. Now I’m going back to school on my time, fully paid for, and still making more money than 90% of my friends.

6. School won’t teach you the most important things about working. It doesn’t even touch on the most important skill there is in business: networking. If you can build relationships with people, and learn new stuff on your own, you will end up doing better than a vast majority of the population, regardless of your degree. HR people are all different. Some people will nitpick where your degree is from, what your major is in, the font you use in your resume, the color of your hair, the day of the week you applied. Don’t worry about stuff you can’t control, worry about stuff you can control.

Meet people and don’t wait for school to get involved with what you are interested in. If you want to work in IT, get involved doing IT stuff now, while you are in high school. Make games, build web sites, contribute to open source projects, fix computers, etc.

My high school GPA was about 3.4, which barely had me in the top 30% of my class. My SAT was worse than yours, but for schools I applied to the ACT was also a valid test, and I did ~95 percentile on that one, so my standardized test scores were decent. In the end, I wound up at the University of Minnesota in the Twin Cities. I was not happy about this, at first. I was so pissed off about going to a "shitty" school that I refused to ever even SEE the campus until classes started.

But I'm not pissed about it anymore. In fact, I really like where I go to school. I've had internships every summer, a few programming jobs during the school year, and I'm confident that I'll be able to find a job in games or, at the very least, the tech industry when I graduate this spring. I don't mind that my school's not ranked at the top of the world, I don't mind that no one really cares about the name "University of Minnesota," I don't mind that my school doesn't have the biggest endowment or the smallest classes or any of that. None of that matters, none of it at all, and that's something I didn't realize in high school. I don't think any high schooler can really understand it. Not when your high school teachers and parents and classmates and counselors are all obsessing over test scores and "getting into the best school you can get into." As far as any high schooler knows, either you get into a phenomenal school or you fail out of life. Your options are either to believe everyone that's telling you to worry about college, or to be apathetic.

And you're not apathetic. You're here, asking us about college, and that's good. That's the smart option. But really, sometime in the next few years you're going to find out how pointless most of college is. Sure, you'll learn some stuff, and some of it will even be useful stuff. But the things you learn in college won't be anywhere NEAR what you need to know to successfully do your job. That's fine, no one expects you to graduate from college knowing everything. In fact, no one really expects you to graduate from college knowing anything at all. That's the thing. A degree is a piece of paper, nothing more.

A degree from MIT doesn't mean you're more qualified than a guy with a degree from Penn State. It means you took a bunch of classes at MIT and didn't fail out. That's it. The fundamental knowledge you get from your degree is the only knowledge that's going to matter in the long run. It's the only thing you're going to remember and it's the only thing you're going to be expected to know. And physics is physics, no matter what school you go to. The principles of computer science are the same everywhere in the world, professors have been teaching the same calculus since the 1600s, organic chemical reactions happen just the same in MIT labs as they do in Penn State labs.

The only thing that matters is whether you as a person are willing to do what it takes to learn physics or computer science of calculus or organic chemistry or whatever it is you want to do. If you understand physics at Penn State, then you understand it at MIT, too.

Maybe some HR people get excited about applicants from MIT and don't want to consider anyone from other schools, that's just the way life is. But in those situations, if they miss out on someone smart just because he or she didn't go to a big name school, then that's their loss. I know that's not much of a comfort to the person who didn't get the job, but it's true, and if you're talented and motivated, there will be something out there for you, regardless of where you went to school.

I'd like to comment on the importance of which college you go to:

It depends mostly on three factors: (1) what your goals are; (2) how ambitious you are; and (3) what you want your college experience to be like.

(1) If you want to go into pure programming--i.e., just writing code on a team (possibly with design responsibilities)--right after graduating, then this is one of the areas for which the quality of the school matters least. It's very difficult to teach true software development skills in an academic setting, and performance in school is just not very indicative of performance in the workplace.

The undergraduate institution means a lot more in many other fields. In pure mathematics (my specialty), some schools are orders of magnitude better than others mainly due to the variety of advanced coursework. It's the same for medicine. Johns Hopkins is many orders of magnitude better for premed students than the average state school. Of course, this only matters if you want to take advantage of it, which leads me to...

(2) Top universities simply have a lot more opportunities for their students than average schools do. Of course, this only matters if you are ambitious enough to try to take advantage of these opportunities. Top schools typically offer fewer lower-level courses and more upper-level courses. Courses usually cover a lot more content than the corresponding courses at average schools. Top schools usually have many research opportunities for undergraduates.

(3) The atmosphere at a school like MIT is different from the atmosphere at an average state school. Students are generally a lot more serious. A student at Harvard wrote on some other forum that you should not go to Harvard if you "have to be the best" in all your classes or even just in your major--because you won't be. I've heard horror stories of students failing out of MIT or other such schools because they were astronomically better than their peers during high school but mostly average at MIT and couldn't emotionally handle it.

Professors may not be better teachers, but they will be more renowned in their field, they will have higher expectations, they will take a more original approach to teaching the subject, and they will cover more material that's not usually discussed.

Some top schools also have honors policies that allow most tests to be take-home and unproctored. See Caltech, Harvey Mudd, and Rice. Some have what are called residential college systems. These are like the house system in Harry Potter; they replace the typical Greek system and make it a fundamental part of the college. See Harvard, Yale, Harvey Mudd, and Rice (and maybe a few others).

This atmosphere is not axiomatically better. Some people thrive in such an atmosphere; others would hate it. It's really up to you.

Quote:

Original post by ChurchSkiz Going to MIT is going to make any career you choose easier to get into. At a price tag of about $50k a year.

I'm going to guess that for most students MIT is cheaper than their corresponding state schools. This is true of most top schools, which have outstanding need-based financial aid. The idea of an Ivy League education (or education at another top school like MIT) being extremely expensive is mostly a myth these days. Perhaps it was true in the past; it's not true today.

I would mention your website in the application as well as all the work you've done on your own. It demonstrates your interest in the subject, and it shows that you pursued learning it on your own--this is a very great trait and will add to your application in my opinion.

Also keep in mind that a lot of talented students who could get into top schools still choose to go to lesser schools because they are often offered a free ride or a massive scholarship. A lot of employers know this, and so they will always consider applications from non-top schools. Even if you don't get a free ride, your interviewer won't know that (and he won't ask) so you could just use that as your cover.

Here's what I think...if anyone cares...

1. High school performance usually sets the tone for how you will perform in college. Once a slacker...always a slacker. You can still change your habits to get good grades in college and work hard, however.

2. I think that like mostly every mathematical or scientific field, the degree gets you in the door, the knowledge and skill gets you through the interview.

3. Personally, I think that it really doesn't matter, sure MIT will get you a GREAT education but there are a lot of other considerations including, scholarships, happiness at your school, etc.

4. I don't think so, like I said earlier, no matter where you go, a degree will get you in the door. It's your experience and involvement in the community that will get you a well earned job.

5. I finished high school with a weighted 4.2 GPA (unweighted ~3.9) and because of those pesky things: scholarships and happiness, right now I'm going to a very small college in north philly called Chestnut Hill. Though we're small we have an excellent computer department and I really believe all that I said earlier and some. I think that being well rounded in something like the gaming industry is very important which is why if I were an employer, I would value a liberal arts education over even the greatest computer wiz tech school product in the world. Games are a lot more than just code and math. I have a dual major in music, and while that may seem absurd, I really don't think so. I'm preparing myself to put on any hat in the industry, whether it be programmer, composer, artist, writer, you name it. I think that this is the way to really override the advantage that those bigger schools levy, and exploit some of their weaknesses.

6. Go to whatever 4 year college you want, make friends, be happy, party a little, and worry about life when it happens...but have a relatively good GPA in the process. (and actually learn what your being taught)...they hire those professors and charge you a lot of money for a reason :)

Pick the college you want to go to the most and apply for early admission. It makes your decision a lot easier if you're accepted, and can save you lots of time with applications.

Your high school grades may have an influence on the college you go to, but I doubt your employers will care too much about how you fared in high school. That being said, grades are one of the important criteria on which fresh out of college job applicants are judged. But I don’t think they can completely break your chances so long as you fulfill the other criteria your employers are looking for.

If you want to work in the high tech field, you should look at getting yourself a relevant education. As long as you know your stuff, you stand as good a chance as anyone else to work for these companies.

In case you are looking for undergraduate degree programs in computers, California College San Diego is an option you can explore.

1) Do you think that high school performance can affect, whether directly or indirectly, your success in life? If so, how?

If you're lazy chances are you'll be lazy and drop out. If you did well in HS that will continue at your university. Learning habits tend to follow your through life. If you pick up on things quickly you'll never have problems. It's the people who forget to do assignments or aren't organized who end up getting stressed out.

2) How much does your undergraduate degree matter when aiming for jobs in the high-tech (eg: computers, engineering, information technology, web development) sector?

It's all about what you know. Web development rarely cares about theory and I've seen multiple people program perfectly legal applications that use the most inefficient naive algorithms (gotta love CIS students). Depending on what you do an undergraduate degree can help a lot. Normally it'll give you the math and theory to put algorithms to use. This depends on what classes you take. If you take a database course (usually high level courses) you'll be fully ready to create databases for oracle, mysql, postgresql with very little extra learning. It's amazing how easily the theory maps to the real world applications in those cases.

3) Is it true that technical/computer education is inferior if taught at a not-so-great state university?

Probably. That would make sense if the professors aren't good or the curriculum doesn't keep up to date. I went to a group meeting that discussed changes to the CS curriculum to update it for the modern era. Not sure if that's happening in other universities, but there seems to be a move away from theory and more towards application. This makes me believe that different universities stress different things so you could come out of it with a different education.

4) I heard that large computers like Google, IBM and Microsoft almost never recruit at universities other than the brand name ones like MIT, CMU, Stanford, etc. With this in mind, does this mean that if I don't go to one of those universities famous for their tech/computer program, I can basically kiss my chances of working for one of these companies goodbye forever?

Forever is a long time. I'm sure if you're dedicated to the CS profession are are very smart you can do anything. There's a ton of interesting stuff that isn't covered in the classrooms. Google is really into web technologies and that kind of stuff isn't covered in a CS course. However, it is stuff that one could learn on their own with ease and get a job using at one of those big name companies. Though I bet they do go to those schools looking for people so that doesn't make your job easier.

5) What's your story? How did you do in high school and what undergraduate college did you go to? Do you think it affected or limited the types of jobs (of course, again, in the tech industry but feel free to include other categories as well) you could get?

I did well with a 3.97. High school is so easy though if you don't take AP credits. I was one of the lazy smart kids, and instead of taking college courses like other people I spent my time hanging out with friends or programming. Much like yourself I started programming in middle school. I read books on C++ and made small programs. In HS I took the offered programming classes and took a vocational programming course. In 7 semesters I got my CS degree from Western Michigan University a month ago and now I'm taking graduate classes. (The degree isn't great, but the professors knew their stuff). As mentioned a lot you get what you put in. Pick up your CS books and read them fully. Also if you want work experience get a job with your university. For 3.5 years now I've managed my university's printing systems as the sole system administrator. Quick real world experience that can be put on a resume.

6) Is there anything else you can add that could help me or relieve me of my current stress?

Not sure what's so stressful. Just apply and you'll get a letter. I didn't even apply really when I got into my University because it's not that strict with admissions. I'm not sure what applying to a big name university/college is even like.

However my extracurricular activities are inferior (I have close to none) and my standardized test scores (SAT and subject tests) are pretty bad. I have a 2040 SAT.

New SATs blow. I think I was the second year they had the writing section. Got like 98-99th percentile on the whole thing except the writing section. Whoever thought making teenagers write an essay in 45 minutes (edit: 25 minutes. It's been a long time since I took it.) on a random subject needs to be slapped in the face with a wet slipper.

Stupid.

That's all I have to contribute right now. Also, get some extracurricular activities. They look good on a resume, but more importantly they are fun.

Whoever thought making teenagers write an essay in 45 minutes on a random subject needs to be slapped in the face with a wet slipper.

@way2lazy2care lol wtg 4 tl;dr; #satblows


Has anyone ever not put "excellent written and verbal communication skills" on resume?

Or maybe it just shows I come from a different age in a strange world, where writing essays was weekly assignment since 5th grade of elementary school.

@way2lazy2care lol wtg 4 tl;dr; #satblows


Has anyone ever not put "excellent written and verbal communication skills" on resume?

Or maybe it just shows I come from a different age in a strange world, where writing essays was weekly assignment since 5th grade of elementary school.

I'm a fine writer. I sucked on the writing section of the SAT because you have 25 minutes to write an essay on a random subject and I ended up writing an essay that was pretty much a stream of thought essay that didn't make any sense because half way through I realized my intro no longer made sense with where the essay was going and I didn't have time to erase and rewrite the first page.

edit: I wouldn't have given myself a good grade either. Mostly just frustrated because of the time constraints that made me submit something that I knew wasn't indicative of my ability.